Where is the Liturgy Going?

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Saint John Bosco dreamt of the Church as a great ship on a pilgrimage to the pillars of the Eucharist and Mary. The Church-ship endures storms and enemy attacks but remains steadfast and the Pope anchors her to the pillars. I see this pilgrimage as a journey to Eucharistic and Marian devotion and proper Liturgy. What do you think?
 
Catholic_Author said:
Saint John Bosco dreamt of the Church as a great ship on a pilgrimage to the pillars of the Eucharist and Mary. The Church-ship endures storms and enemy attacks but remains steadfast and the Pope anchors her to the pillars. I see this pilgrimage as a journey to Eucharistic and Marian devotion and proper Liturgy. What do you think?
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Eucharistic - fine - all for that.

Marian devotion - well I think I will pass.
 
Catholic_Author said:
Saint John Bosco dreamt of the Church as a great ship on a pilgrimage to the pillars of the Eucharist and Mary. The Church-ship endures storms and enemy attacks but remains steadfast and the Pope anchors her to the pillars. I see this pilgrimage as a journey to Eucharistic and Marian devotion and proper Liturgy. What do you think?
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Having been eductated by Salesian Sisters, I am well aware of Don Bosco’s dream. We were taught that the Blessed Sacrament and Mary were the two pillars sustaining the Church. After all, it was through the Blessed Mother’s intercession that the battle of Lepanto was won. I understand your idea, but, your interpretation of his dream is slgihtly off, as the barque of Peter is suppoed to be tied to these two pillars. Believe me, I heard this dream over the course of my nine years at my Salesian School (along with all of Don Bosco’s other dreams). I can probably recite the whole texts of these from memory, but, I won’t bore you with the details.😃 .

Unfortunately, with the way the liturgy has been handled over the course of the last 40 years, many storms have swept over, but, not away, the barque of Peter. Even the Salesian Sisters have fallen victim to the noveau approaches by incorporating liturgical dance into the Mass. I was very upset when this started happening at my alma mater and had some choice discussions with the nun who brought these innovations (along with singing Protestant praise music during the Mass).

Part of what makes this whole thing painful is the fact that Don Bosco stressed fidelity and adherence to the Holy Father and to the Magiseterium. Redemptionis Sacramentum and the other Church documents make clear what is and what is not allowed during the Mass. What is sad is that these documents are largely ignored by the same group whose cornerstone is fidelity to the Holy Father.

I don’t think that if Don Bosco were to walk into this particular school, he would be too pleased with what he saw and experienced.
 
benedictgal,

Yes, it is not a Salesian interpretation to say that in the dream the voyage to the Eucharist is a pilgrimage to proper Liturgy. But that does not discount it as such. I believe this kind of an interpretation adds to the traditional Salesian interpretation without taking anything away. Consider the storms and councils of the dream and what they represent in light of the goal of the Eucharist. Then consider that since Vatican II members of the Church have certainly been pushing the envelope of the Novus Ordo. On this Summorum Pontificum provides clarity. It begs the question, does Benedict XVI typify the Pope who moors the Church/ship to the pillars? I believe that this is within the bounds of reason especially if you consider the dream prophetic.

I think it’s great that you can recite the dream from memory. Have you read the original three extant redactions? Or do you know it from the Biographical Memoirs?
 
Catholic_Author said:
benedictgal,

Yes, it is not a Salesian interpretation to say that in the dream the voyage to the Eucharist is a pilgrimage to proper Liturgy. But that does not discount it as such. I believe this kind of an interpretation adds to the traditional Salesian interpretation without taking anything away. Consider the storms and councils of the dream and what they represent in light of the goal of the Eucharist. Then consider that since Vatican II members of the Church have certainly been pushing the envelope of the Novus Ordo. On this Summorum Pontificum provides clarity. It begs the question, does Benedict XVI typify the Pope who moors the Church/ship to the pillars? I believe that this is within the bounds of reason especially if you consider the dream prophetic.

I think it’s great that you can recite the dream from memory. Have you read the original three extant redactions? Or do you know it from the Biographical Memoirs?
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It’s Benedict alright. That is not to discount JPII completely; however, I think in these two short years Benedict has done a lot more to get the ball rolling to right the barque of Peter when it comes to the liturgy. I am concerned, however, that poster #2 seems to discount Marian devotion, which is a significantly important facet of Catholicism.

The dreams I learnt since about the age of five. They were first read to us in kindergarten and then we read them for ourselves the moment we learned how to read. They supplemented our catechetical materials. In fact, I would check the books out from our library on a frequent basis as I got older.
 
**For one thing, Benedict finally allowed the Tridentine Liturgy to be celebrated again which should never have been suppressed. Never in the history of the Church has it ever suppressed its own liturgy like the liberals attempted to do for the past 40+ years. It was a bad pastoral move to make the Church into their own image and likeness. The Novus Ordo, if done properly, is quite beautiful, but both should have been allowed to exist side-by-side from the very beginning so that the spiritual needs of the faithful continued to be met in both. I believe Benedict XVI has taken the proper steps of inclusion.
 
peary said:
**For one thing, Benedict finally allowed the Tridentine Liturgy to be celebrated again which should never have been suppressed. *Never in the history of the Church has it ever suppressed its own liturgy ***like the liberals attempted to do for the past 40+ years. It was a bad pastoral move to make the Church into their own image and likeness. The Novus Ordo, if done properly, is quite beautiful, but both should have been allowed to exist side-by-side from the very beginning so that the spiritual needs of the faithful continued to be met in both. I believe Benedict XVI has taken the proper steps of inclusion.
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We should get all the other older missals up and in use again too - make sure to include folks where they are the heritage.
 
Catholic_Author said:
Saint John Bosco dreamt of the Church as a great ship on a pilgrimage to the pillars of the Eucharist and Mary. The Church-ship endures storms and enemy attacks but remains steadfast and the Pope anchors her to the pillars. I see this pilgrimage as a journey to Eucharistic and Marian devotion and proper Liturgy. What do you think?
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The great ship is on a journey to SALVATION for us all, with God! The Eucharist, as with all the sacraments, will aid us to get there - they are a means not an end. There are no sacraments in Heaven! And Jesus established the Church to help us get to Heaven, not for any other reason!

While love of Mary, and memorializing the sacrifice of Jesus through the journey are an important part of our faith experience, no way is there anything that’s a destination other than to be with God in heaven! Let’s not lose sight of the forest for the trees…
 
awalt,
True, the end of the entire journey is God the Father. The end of this leg of the journey as depicted in the dream is the Eucharist. The sacraments are assisting us in the holiness that brings us to the Father through the Son. Here the Eucharist is depicted as the means of salvation. It even bares the title Salus Credentium on a placard beneath it.
 
Catholic_Author said:
awalt,
True, the end of the entire journey is God the Father. The end of this leg of the journey as depicted in the dream is the Eucharist. The sacraments are assisting us in the holiness that brings us to the Father through the Son. Here the Eucharist is depicted as the means of salvation. It even bares the title Salus Credentium on a placard beneath it.
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As a spiritual daughter of St. John Bosco, I believe I must defend what he was trying to say. I agree with you Catholic Author in your remarks concerning the Eucharist.

St. John Bosco taught us that the two most important elements in our Faith were the Blessed Sacrament and the Blessed Mother. He made his most important decisions on his knees, praying to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. His devotion to Mary was great, especially under the title of Mary Help of Christians. He taught us that as long as we held firm to the Holy Eucharist and to Mary, Help of Christians, we couldn’t go wrong.

There have been many times in my life were I have strayed; however, I never stopped going to Mass nor praying to Mary Help of Christians. I have been criticized by a few folks on the Mary Did You Know thread because I am adamant about defending the integrity of her Immaculate Conception. Why? This is something that was instilled in me by the Salesian Sisters who taught me. The new crop worries me because they’ve started liturgical dance and have the kids sing Protestant praise music during the Mass. They aren’t teaching them the importance of fidelity to the rubrics of the Mass. This goes against the integrity and fidelity to the Holy Father that Don Bosco taught us.

To await: The liturgy prepares us for the heavenly liturgy that we will celebrate in the New Jerusalem. It gives us a foretaste of that divine liturgy. Mary is our model and pattern. What she is now, we will soon become. 1 hour a week, Marian devotion is important and should not be discounted. Jesus gave her to us as our Mother, did he not? He gave to St. John the most important treasure He had. Who are we to not put stock in her maternal love and protection?
 
benedictgal said:
I do hope that you at least accept the Church’s teaching on Mary. If not, this could be problematic.
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Not practicing any Marian devotions is not the same as denying any official Church teaching. I am offended that this was brought up.
 
Just_1_hr_a_wk said:
Not practicing any Marian devotions is not the same as denying any official Church teaching. I am offended that this was brought up.
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I didn’t mean to offend you, but, there is something disconcerting about not practicing a Marian devotion if one is Catholic. I don’t necessarily mean that you have to pray a novena to Mary or reicte the Rosary every day, but, to not have any Marian devotion at all is somewhat troubling?
 
benedictgal said:
I didn’t mean to offend you, but, there is something disconcerting about not practicing a Marian devotion if one is Catholic. I don’t necessarily mean that you have to pray a novena to Mary or reicte the Rosary every day, but, to not have any Marian devotion at all is somewhat troubling?
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There is nothing about not being drawn to Marian devotions that would make someone less Catholic than a person who is drawn to them.***
 
benedictgal said:
I didn’t mean to offend you, but, there is something disconcerting about not practicing a Marian devotion if one is Catholic. I don’t necessarily mean that you have to pray a novena to Mary or reicte the Rosary every day, but, to not have any Marian devotion at all is somewhat troubling?
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Catholics can love our Lady and fully accept teachings surrounding her without being drawn to any particular devotion. Some may be more drawn to the Eucharist and practice hours of adoration without necessarily exerting the same efforts in Marian devotions.

I, for example do not really feel a strong attachment to the Rosary, but I would spend more time doing the Liturgy of the Hours instead. I do pray the Rosary, mind you. It’s just that if I miss my Breviary, I feel something missing for the day. However, I do not really miss it if I can’t say the Rosary.

Does that make me “less” or a “worse” Catholic? Of course not.
 
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