Where is the Public Out cry from all Catholics?

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Where is the Public Out cry from all Catholics? When we keep seeing thesethings being said by the Pope.

“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” the pope said at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, during a plenary meeting dedicated to evolving concepts of nature.
msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-god-not-magician-magic-wand#50899

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: We will meet one another there.”
npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed
“God sees to the fruits of our labors,” Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U.S. tour. “And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus … and His life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”
charismanews.com/world/52394-pope-francis-jesus-life-ended-in-failure

I totally do not understand why Catholics are not upset by these kinds of statements. Christ did not fail. He knew what he had to do and he did it for us even though we don’t deserve it. God Created the whole world and he can do anything!

Golanv
 
Where is the understanding of obedience? Who knows what the word means, what it implies, what it asks of the believer, what it’s source is?

Starting with etymology
Ob-audiere: “to listen”, which in the Christian sense involves
attentiveness,
bona fide or “good faith” assumptions about what one is hearing,
prayerful consideration,
humility.
 
Where is the integrity and intelligence that is required to have an correctly informed opinion and not one shaped by secular and even anti-Catholic media?

There’s already a good thread over in Apologetics that addresses this.

Why blame Pope Francis for something that he did not say?

[Akin]
 
RavenWolfe said:
Where is the Public Out cry from all Catholics? When we keep seeing thesethings being said by the Pope.

“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” the pope said at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, during a plenary meeting dedicated to evolving concepts of nature.
msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-god-not-magician-magic-wand#50899

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: We will meet one another there.”
npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed
“God sees to the fruits of our labors,” Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U.S. tour. “And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus … and His life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”
charismanews.com/world/52394-pope-francis-jesus-life-ended-in-failure

I totally do not understand why Catholics are not upset by these kinds of statements. Christ did not fail. He knew what he had to do and he did it for us even though we don’t deserve it. God Created the whole world and he can do anything!

Golanv
Click to expand...
(1) And? God’s not a magican. He doesn’t do things on a whim or by waving a wang.

(2) Learn the difference between redeemed and saved.
catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-difference-between-being-redeemed-and-being-saved
Basically, redemption is collective, while salvation is individual. Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment that mankind, as a whole, owed due to sin. Every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race. Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. A person can choose to reject the graces won for him by Christ even though he has been redeemed.
Click to expand...
(3) You should bold the part of “humanly speaking”. Lots of people thought that Jesus’ mission failed on the cross, but that’s what allowed the divine to succeed.

What Francis is saying is that sometimes we do good works and it looks like it all ends in failure. Like when you donate money to somebody and they squander it, or when you work to get a homeless person into a house and a job, and they just quit and go back to living in a tent. We’ve all seen this. That, outworldly and to the world, it looks like we failed.

But the Pope is saying that just because it looks to the world like you failed (like the world thought Jesus did) doesn’t you mean you failed for, on a divine level, you did succeed.
 
Para 1 - Francis has a wonderfully comical way of warning us not to be simplistic. Speaking for myself personally I think the Bible is concretely true which I think a more useful concept than literally true. It often doesn’t specify the concretes. It alludes to them or implies them, however. Like my dad and apparently Bd J H Newman I have always thought reliable science shed light on rather than took light away from creation. I think the stress in Francis words is on the magic rather than the ability. He means we shouldn’t think God has an inconsequential ability. Our God’s abilities are meaningful.

Para 2 - ARSpade has dealt with.

Para 3 - didn’t people say “If you are the Son of God come off the cross” but He didn’t. Almost all the men disciples ran away. Posters in other threads have wondered whether they have made a difference in a particular situation or not.

🙂
 
RavenWolfe said:
Where is the Public Out cry from all Catholics? When we keep seeing thesethings being said by the Pope.

“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” the pope said at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, during a plenary meeting dedicated to evolving concepts of nature.
msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-god-not-magician-magic-wand#50899

“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: We will meet one another there.”
npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed
“God sees to the fruits of our labors,” Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U.S. tour. “And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus … and His life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”
charismanews.com/world/52394-pope-francis-jesus-life-ended-in-failure

I totally do not understand why Catholics are not upset by these kinds of statements. Christ did not fail. He knew what he had to do and he did it for us even though we don’t deserve it. God Created the whole world and he can do anything!

Golanv
Click to expand...
RavenWolfe,

Here is what I do whenever I read a headline about Pope Francis that appears to attribute a quote to him that would seemingly contradict 2000 years of Catholic teaching:
  1. Go to snopes.com. I have found several “quotes” from our good Pope to be total fabrications
  2. Read the original text from a Catholic source (like Vatican news) - avoid the highly filtered and prejudicial view of the MSM. Sources like Huffington Post, and others have a highly tainted view of Catholicism.
  3. Read quotes from Francis in the context that he is the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church! He is not changing doctrine / dogma. If you read something and it appears that the Pope is changing doctrine, then that should be a “red flag” that he was misquoted or you were misreading it.
  4. When in doubt, go back and read the Catechism from the Vatican website (www.vatican.va, and choose “english” from the language drop down menu in the upper right corner). If Pope Francis is indeed the Pope and he actually changed something, wouldn’t the Catechism have changed? If it didn’t change, perhaps there is a misunderstanding in what he is actually reported to have said
Blessings,

Shockerfan
 
RavenWolfe said:
npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed
“God sees to the fruits of our labors,” Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U.S. tour. “And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus … and His life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”
charismanews.com/world/52394-pope-francis-jesus-life-ended-in-failure

Christ did not fail.
Click to expand...
Read it in context & note what I put in bold - humanly speaking Jesus was a failure. He died. But we know “the rest of the story.”
 
shockerfan said:
RavenWolfe,

Here is what I do whenever I read a headline about Pope Francis that appears to attribute a quote to him that would seemingly contradict 2000 years of Catholic teaching:
  1. Go to snopes.com. I have found several “quotes” from our good Pope to be total fabrications
  2. Read the original text from a Catholic source (like Vatican news) - avoid the highly filtered and prejudicial view of the MSM. Sources like Huffington Post, and others have a highly tainted view of Catholicism.
  3. Read quotes from Francis in the context that he is the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church! He is not changing doctrine / dogma. If you read something and it appears that the Pope is changing doctrine, then that should be a “red flag” that he was misquoted or you were misreading it.
  4. When in doubt, go back and read the Catechism from the Vatican website (www.vatican.va, and choose “english” from the language drop down menu in the upper right corner). If Pope Francis is indeed the Pope and he actually changed something, wouldn’t the Catechism have changed? If it didn’t change, perhaps there is a misunderstanding in what he is actually reported to have said
Blessings,

Shockerfan
Click to expand...
👍

Pretty much this.

3/4 of what the media says Pope Francis said is about as accurate as a thermometer without any mercury in it. Go to the source, pretty much everything he says and writes in an official capacity is recorded on the Vatican website.
 
Not that it will change your opinion; but you can listen to these on you tube and hear the quotes right as he says them. There are tons of iffy statements I just used a few. I am a Catholic but if this stuff keeps happening I will not be. I believe the Bible is the Word of God, **I believe Christ did not fail even humanly as you say, He was the only man to walk the earth without sin, He knew he had to go to the cross and did it freely for us, ** Especially me as a sinner I realize how great what he did was because I did not deserve it.

The Good Shepherd from the Bible
1
  • “Amen, amen, I say to you,a whoever does not enter a sheepfold* through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber.
    2
    But whoever enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.
    3
    The gatekeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice, as he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
    4
  • When he has driven out all his own, he walks ahead of them, and the sheep follow him,b because they recognize his voice.
    5
    But they will not follow a stranger; they will run away from him, because they do not recognize the voice of strangers.”
    6
    Although Jesus used this figure of speech,* they did not realize what he was trying to tell them.
7
  • So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep.
    8
  • All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
    9
    I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.
    10
    A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.
    11
    I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.c
    12
    A hired man, who is not a shepherd and whose sheep are not his own, sees a wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away, and the wolf catches and scatters them.d
    13
    This is because he works for pay and has no concern for the sheep.
    14
    I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
    15
    just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.e
    16
    I have other sheep* that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.f
    17
    This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.g
    18
    No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father.”h*
    19
    Again there was a division among the Jews because of these words.i
    20
    Many of them said, “He is possessed and out of his mind; why listen to him?”j
    21
    Others said, “These are not the words of one possessed; surely a demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”k
That statement ended up being the last straw for me. It should have never even been said even with a qualifier as people say because there is no qualifier. I am so hurt and disillusioned with the Catholic Church at this point. No light should ever be made of what Christ did for us period. If I get banned for saying what I feel and for standing up for what is right so be it. I am saying from my heart what I feel Christ telling me to say.

God Bless you all for I am not going to argue over how I feel but these things need to be said and people need to be listening and praying hard.
Golanv
 
You are misunderstanding. He didn’t fail, humanly or otherwise; that’s not what Pope Francis is saying.

From a (pre-Christian) human perspective, Christ was a failure because his efforts ultimately ended in a horrific death with Rome still ruling over Israel. There were many false Messiahs in Christ’s day, almost none of which are known today. (There are a few recorded by Josephus (sp?) and other Jewish historians that we know of.) They promised salvation from the Romans and had large followings. Most (or all) of these false messiahs’ met with an untimely demise, and their congregations disbanded shortly thereafter. They were failures. From the perspective of the Jewish and Roman authorities, Christ was another false messiah who died a failure.

From the Christian perspective, however, we recognize that Christ’s death was the ultimate triumph over evil. He suffered the greatest evils so he could give us the greatest gift possible, intimate knowledge of God and the hope of eternal life with Him. What seemed to the people at the time to be an abject failure was actually the greatest triumph that has ever, or will ever, occur.

Your insistence that there is “no qualifier” is, quite frankly, idiotic. You are claiming that because you have interpreted this way, there is no other way in which it could have been intended. I’m quite sure we have more than destroyed this position. You are acting as though you know better, or are holier, than our Holy father. This is the height of hubris and pride, and I urge you to recognize that Pope Francis speaks with greater nuance than most of us probably realize. He speaks with decades of knowledge and experience which we cannot comprehend, and what he says has deeper meaning than is most blunt face. You are doing what the media does and disregarding context and Catholic teaching, instead of embracing the rich tradition of the Church, where Christ’s “human failing” has been discussed in depth by deeply-holy men and great Saints!
 
RavenWolfe said:
I believe Christ did not fail even humanly as you say,

1 Corinthians 1:23:
“But we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles”

This sounds like failing in the eyes of the world to me, which is what the Pope said.
Click to expand...
 
RavenWolfe said:
I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I believe Christ did not fail even humanly as you say…

The phrase “humanly speaking” means that it seems to non-believers that Jesus failed. It refers to how others see Him, not to how He is.

If English is not your first language, it’s easy to misunderstand the meaning of idioms.
Click to expand...
 
RavenWolfe said:
Where is the Public Out cry from all Catholics? When we keep seeing thesethings being said by the Pope.

“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” the pope said at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, during a plenary meeting dedicated to evolving concepts of nature.
msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-god-not-magician-magic-wand#50899

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class. We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all. And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: We need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: We will meet one another there."npr.org/sections/parallels/2013/05/29/187009384/Pope-Francis-Even-Atheists-Can-Be-Redeemed
“God sees to the fruits of our labors,” Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U.S. tour. “And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus … and His life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross.”
charismanews.com/world/52394-pope-francis-jesus-life-ended-in-failure

I totally do not understand why Catholics are not upset by these kinds of statements. Christ did not fail. He knew what he had to do and he did it for us even though we don’t deserve it. God Created the whole world and he can do anything!

Golanv
Click to expand...
What is your objection to the middle statement?
Do you not believe God created every human being?
If God created every human being, are they not a beloved child of God?
Do you not believe Christ’s sacrifice redeemed every human being?
Do you not believe an atheist can convert and make it to heaven?
Something else?

All these teachings are part of Catholic Tradition.
 
RavenWolfe said:
Not that it will change your opinion; but you can listen to these on you tube and hear the quotes right as he says them. There are tons of iffy statements I just used a few. I am a Catholic but if this stuff keeps happening I will not be. I believe the Bible is the Word of God, I believe Christ did not fail even humanly as you say, He was the only man to walk the earth without sin, He knew he had to go to the cross and did it freely for us, Especially me as a sinner I realize how great what he did was because I did not deserve it.

The Good Shepherd from the Bible
1
  • “Amen, amen, I say to you,a whoever does not enter a sheepfold* through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber.
    2
    But whoever enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.
    3
    The gatekeeper opens it for him, and the sheep hear his voice, as he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
    4
  • When he has driven out all his own, he walks ahead of them, and the sheep follow him,b because they recognize his voice.
    5
    But they will not follow a stranger; they will run away from him, because they do not recognize the voice of strangers.”
    6
    Although Jesus used this figure of speech,* they did not realize what he was trying to tell them.
7
  • So Jesus said again, “Amen, amen, I say to you, I am the gate for the sheep.
    8
  • All who came [before me] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
    9
    I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.
    10
    A thief comes only to steal and slaughter and destroy; I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly.
    11
    I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.c
    12
    A hired man, who is not a shepherd and whose sheep are not his own, sees a wolf coming and leaves the sheep and runs away, and the wolf catches and scatters them.d
    13
    This is because he works for pay and has no concern for the sheep.
    14
    I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
    15
    just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.e
    16
    I have other sheep* that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.f
    17
    This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.g
    18
    No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father.”h*
    19
    Again there was a division among the Jews because of these words.i
    20
    Many of them said, “He is possessed and out of his mind; why listen to him?”j
    21
    Others said, “These are not the words of one possessed; surely a demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”k
That statement ended up being the last straw for me. It should have never even been said even with a qualifier as people say because there is no qualifier. I am so hurt and disillusioned with the Catholic Church at this point. No light should ever be made of what Christ did for us period. If I get banned for saying what I feel and for standing up for what is right so be it. I am saying from my heart what I feel Christ telling me to say.

God Bless you all for I am not going to argue over how I feel but these things need to be said and people need to be listening and praying hard.
Golanv
Click to expand...
You are misunderstanding. The apostles all thought Jesus’ mission failed too until they saw Him raised from the dead. The fact that he was raised from the dead is finalized their conversion.

We all have to understand that the Pope is NOT speaking in English. These quotes are being translated and often not reported in their entire context. Sometimes translations are poor or sometimes you loose the word play. This is the same in The Bible and it’s the same with translations from the Pope.

Please DO NOT leave the Church based on misunderstandings of what the Pope says. If he was saying or doing something truly wrong/iffy,the National Catholic Register, Catholic Answers, EWTN, etc would all be reporting on it.

Have you ever heard of CK Chesterton’s discussion on regarding the “Jesus was just a good person” argument from non-Christians?

He says, Jesus can’t be just a good person. He’s either who he says he is, The Son of God, or he’s a deranged person. You can’t be a good person when you are claiming to be God. We have to make a choice… Jesus is either God or he isn’t. You can’t be lukewarm about it. Christians all believe He is God.

The Pope is simply making a similar argument. I’m sure there were Jews back then that were either disciplines of Christ or followed him closely and felt that He failed when he died and didn’t believe he was resurrected from the dead (remember: they were expecting the Messiah to free them from the Romans). Those people would have considered Jesus a failure because they did not believe.

Being Christian is about having Faith in the Resurrected Christ. That is the point the Pope was making.

But I know that Jimmy Akin can speak about this much better than I can.

God Bless!
 
Bonnie said:
The phrase “humanly speaking” means that it seems to non-believers that Jesus failed. It refers to how others see Him, not to how He is.

If English is not your first language, it’s easy to misunderstand the meaning of idioms.
Click to expand...
+1
 
Assuming English is your first language (if it is not, then of course it is much easier to confuse things; I’m quite sure I’d have a problem if I read all of the Holy Father’s statements in Spanish!), then it shouldn’t need that helpful linked explanation by Jimmy Akin - or everyone else who has already posted here - to make even more clear what is frankly already pretty evident to anyone who has a sufficient fluency in English and more than a desire to misread everything that Pope Francis says or is claimed to say.

As has been already said, on the first Good Friday Christ’s followers were broken and scattered, terrified that they would be next put to death and confused and stunned that the man they had followed didn’t seem to be who He had claimed to be. Why would the world’s Redeemer allow Himself to be so easily put to death? Clearly, this man could not have been the Messiah after all - he could only have been simply a charismatic young man with a rebellious and kindly streak. His mission had ended in failure.

But then 3 days later Mary Magdalene comes running pell-mell towards the men: “I have seen the Lord!” she says. And so she had, and we know the rest of the story.

The Pope wasn’t saying Christ was a failure. He was more suggesting that from the point of view of humanity, before even the little of God’s purpose which we know today was as dimly clear as it is today, had been fully understood, Jesus the man could readily be seen as a failure. Generally, we do not think that those who die in their cause were altogether successful.

This is one of the infinity of reasons which makes Christ’s sacrifice, of course, so immeasurably wonderful and special.
 
The Pope used the words “humanly speaking” as a qualifier. If he meant what you seemed to by implying, he would have simply said Jesus was a failure. He didn’t say that.

Christ *is *a failure, humanly speaking. He is crucified and his followers abandoned him and dispersed. 🤷
Many of his followers at that time expected the Messiah to liberate the chosen people from the Romans. He did not do that.

This is nothing new in Christian teaching. In fact it is the core of the Christian message, that our life is lost in order find salvation.
 
clem456 said:
The Pope used the words “humanly speaking” as a qualifier…This is nothing new in Christian teaching. In fact it is the core of the Christian message, that our life is lost in order find salvation.
Click to expand...
Didn’t St. Paul say something very similar? I’m trying to remember the citation, but my memory is coming up blank.
 
“humanly speaking”
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect
Click to expand...
Salvation through human weakness: (one of the most powerful passages in scripture IMO)
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Click to expand...
Praise be to you Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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