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TCEL
Guest
That number on contraception is higher than I expected, but not high enough to comport with the Christian population in the country. The Protestant reformers were against birth-control.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
The devastation of Catholicism in this country is truly sad. Not long ago I had occasion to have a conversation with classmates from my Catholic University. Most of them were still devotedly Catholic. Many of their children, however, were satisfied with being minimally Catholic (some not Catholic at all) as long as they believe themselves “good people”. Their grandchildren essentially take their mores and beliefs from the surrounding culture.
I personally lay this fault chiefly at the feet of the Churchmen-educators of the last few decades, for many of whom politics was more important than learning the teachings of the Church. As long as one voted to spend someone else’s money on social projects, one was virtuous. That generation of teachers is thinning out and a better crew, I believe, is coming on. But the damage has been so terrible that catechizing the young is going to be exceedingly difficult. It’s entirely possible the next generation of Catholics will be perhaps half what it could have been.
I personally lay this fault chiefly at the feet of the Churchmen-educators of the last few decades, for many of whom politics was more important than learning the teachings of the Church. As long as one voted to spend someone else’s money on social projects, one was virtuous. That generation of teachers is thinning out and a better crew, I believe, is coming on. But the damage has been so terrible that catechizing the young is going to be exceedingly difficult. It’s entirely possible the next generation of Catholics will be perhaps half what it could have been.
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exnihilo
Guest
The breakdown by religious affiliation and partisanship is the most interesting. It would seem to tell us that White evangelicals are the hope of our civilization. Catholics, Jews, and ‘unaffiliated’ are mostly for forcing people to disobey their religious or personal beliefs about morality.
But on the contraception issue White evangelicals don’t score so well, though they do slightly favor the right position. On this issue Republicans don’t score well either. Most evangelicals don’t see contraception as being a sin. So the news isn’t really good at all. What it tells us is most Americans, regardless of religion or political position, are for forcing others to violate their beliefs if they don’t see the action itself as sinful. It is important to remember that this isn’t an issue of making it illegal to perform a harmful act. This is a question of forcing someone to act in a way that violates their own conscience. What the numbers actually reveal is that most Americans are authoritarians with no respect for personal liberty. Given this and given the success the forces of evil have had in redefining morality the future is very bleak.
But on the contraception issue White evangelicals don’t score so well, though they do slightly favor the right position. On this issue Republicans don’t score well either. Most evangelicals don’t see contraception as being a sin. So the news isn’t really good at all. What it tells us is most Americans, regardless of religion or political position, are for forcing others to violate their beliefs if they don’t see the action itself as sinful. It is important to remember that this isn’t an issue of making it illegal to perform a harmful act. This is a question of forcing someone to act in a way that violates their own conscience. What the numbers actually reveal is that most Americans are authoritarians with no respect for personal liberty. Given this and given the success the forces of evil have had in redefining morality the future is very bleak.
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PassingSoul
Guest
There are many reasons why we are seeing the decline of the Catholic Faith. It’s like a perfect storm of reasons all coming together at once. There is a new religion called sports. When a parent has to choose for their son or daughter to miss church or practice. It’s always church. It’s a fear of their " Kid being left out ". Then there is the animosity between kids attending Catholics Schools vs. Public Schools. Most of it surrounds Football. If a Catholic kid attends Public School it’s almost like he’s betraying his teammates if he goes to a Catholic Church. The Catholics kids in public schools use to join a Don Bosco youth group that group is long gone.
I find that there is too much Personal Liberty that people have in making up their own rules on morality. Kids today are not allow to fail. If they do fail its the Teachers or Coaches fault. There is a lack of Conscience when one does wrong. Does anyone go to Confession anymore ? I swear I must be the only Sinner in our Church, the priest always thanks me for coming.
In today’s society everything has to be entertaining. Has the Catholic Church ceased to be entertaining ? Our the sermons too boring and the hymns to monotonous compared to the Evangelical Churches ? Has the Catholic Church itself disconnected itself from its flock ?
Many reasons and little solutions.
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lmachine
Guest
No, they’re in favor of public businesses following public laws.
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_Abyssinia
Guest
cruxnow.com/analysis/2016/09/28/contraception-mandates-polls-pivot-question-asked/
How a question is phrased may vary responses in different polls which is why you can get a poll with the result Pew does, compared to the Marist College Poll.
Also in regards to the Pew poll, look at these excepts from the following article regarding the poll when it’s broken down more by Church attendance
stcloudvisitor.org/2016/09/30/survey-catholics-want-businesses-cover-contraception-health-plans/
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PassingSoul
Guest
Government Services should follow the law period. Private Businesses I don’t really have a problem with them following their religious views unless it’s racially motivated. The reason being is they won’t be in business long by turning away customers and the bad PR they would receive. It’s almost self policing.
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lmachine
Guest
Then you aren’t in favor of religious freedom.
No. They’re in favor of suspending the supreme law of the land that protects religious free exercise.
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lmachine
Guest
Which religions do they want to ban?
I didn’t say ban. I said suspend religious free exercise, which is an individual right that extends beyond worship. For many orthodox Christians, Catholics and others, abortion, abortifacients, even contraceptives violate their religious faith. When the government uses its power (usurped in this case since there is no enumerated power ) to force Christians to participate in insurance plans that provide these, it interferes with their free exercise. And it doesn’t matter if it is Little Sisters of the Poor, or Hobby Lobby, as religious free exercise is an individual right. The HHS Mandate suspends religious free exercise
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Inisfallen
Guest
Would you be in favor of a Muslim cabdriver, or delivery driver, or messenger, refusing to transport alcohol?
If it is his company, and doesn’t want to do that, by all means.
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exnihilo
Guest
Entertainment, of which sports is a subset, is certainly a very negative influence on our culture. It is a huge distraction. The political class has know for a long time bread and circuses are a good way to keep the people content.
Public business? I thought we had private property and private business. The question isn’t should people follow the law but does the law have a right to override conscience and force people to act. Or put another way how much of a slave are we to the state.
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Inisfallen
Guest
Can’t say I agree with you.
I don’t like the scenario. Say I arrive at Kennedy Airport, late at night. I’m tired and frazzled and I just want to go home. And I go out front, and get on the line for a taxi, and when I get to the front, the cabdriver says “excuse me, sir, but are you carrying any alcohol?” Thinking of the couple of duty-free bottles of nice Scotch I picked up, I say, “why yes, I am.” And he refuses to take me. And so I try the next cab. And he refuses me. This isn’t an unbelievable scenario – it’s been estimated that about a third of New York’s cab drivers are Muslim (that’s why it was tough to get a cab on the recent Eid-al-Adha holiday).
Doesn’t seem right to me. Seems that if one goes into business, procuring a license from the state, one is obliged to serve all customers, not merely those who live in accordance with one’s religious beliefs.
Of course it’s right. I can say the same thing to him. “Excuse me, sir. Do you on a regular basis transport alcoholic beverages? You do? Then I shall seek out a different driver.”
What is the difference? A decision to enter into a contract decided based, in part on moral or religious beliefs. That is part of the free exercise of religion.
When one goes into business, they do not check their constitutional rights at the curb. No where does the constitution say you have a right to religious free exercise except if you operate a business. In fact, the constitution places its limits on government- “Congress shall make no law…” - not on individuals
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The freedom of religion guaranteed by the Constitution is not an absolute one, as I am sure you will agree. There are some pagan religions that call for child sacrifices. Freedom of religion does not protect the exercise of religion when that exercise of religion breaks an important law, like the law against murder in that case, or the law against discrimination in public accommodations or transportation in other cases. Where this could come into conflict is when a potential law would interfere unreasonably with an exercise of religion. For example, if a state were to pass a law that forbade the wearing of a crucifix in public, the Constitutional protection of freedom of religion should make such a law unconstitutional, since there is no overriding public good that can come from banning crucifixes, while there is an overriding public good that can come from banning murder. There could be some hard cases that are not easy to decide. But I don’t think nondiscrimination in public transportation is one of them.
A cab driver is not just a private contractor. He is licensed by the state. In some cases the state licensing only permits a certain number of cab drivers to operate at a given airport. When a driver takes one of those slots, he is acting in part on behalf of the state that allowed him to take one of those limited cab driving slots serving an airport. Therefore the driver has already entered into a contract with the state before he even picks up his fare. That contract means he cannot refuse to carry someone just because that person has different religious beliefs.
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exnihilo
Guest
I agree the free exercise of religion can’t mean that a man can do anything he wants. But there is a huge difference in not allowing a man to do an evil act and forcing him to do an act. What we are talking about here is the latter. Once you accept the idea that the state can force a man to act against his conscience you’ve really destroyed any limit to the state’s powers.
The state requiring a person to have a license doesn’t make that person an agent of the state, if so this is yet another argument against licensing. The driver isn’t entering into a contract because it is not by free consent. The state uses its monopoly right to use force to create an economic monopoly in handing out licenses. It is not a consensual agreement at all. But following this logic the state could force a Catholic doctor to perform an abortion since he would be licensed by the state.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Young people are rejecting religion over all, not just Catholic kids rejecting Catholicism.
I have Mormon friends and their kids are rejecting their religion as well.
In fact, the son was not allowed to attend his sisters wedding, because he was a fallen out Mormon.
It’s why the poll is showing a divide and the divide will grow as older people die out and the young anti-religion generation takes over.
Jim
I have Mormon friends and their kids are rejecting their religion as well.
In fact, the son was not allowed to attend his sisters wedding, because he was a fallen out Mormon.
It’s why the poll is showing a divide and the divide will grow as older people die out and the young anti-religion generation takes over.
Jim
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