Where to begin?

[Lampo]

You are sadly mistaken. Go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and look up “Original Sin.” This is pretty fundamental and worth your while to spend time trying to understand. The whole of Scripture refutes the idea that we are inherently good. If we were inherently good, then whence all the sin that surrounds us? And why the need for God to send His Son? Salvation is a free gift of God, but it was not free to obtain. God paid a very high price. There is a reason why He paid that price!

I have a good grasp on the Church’s teaching on original sin. It’s always good to refresh your understanding, so I’ll do just that. Why do you sin? Because you are seeking some good. Any good that we do is actually our search for God.

You didn’t answer my question. Being a non-Catholic, not sure you can. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the CC teach that man is inherently good but at the same time acknowledge that we have a fallen nature and a stain of original sin? It’s that “both/and” thing again.

 

[guanophore]

I am not contesting the hypostatic union here and, besides, that is a different subject. I am questioning your last sentence, which appears to me to be an innovation of your own making. What you are here proposing appears contrary to the Trinity. In fact, it sounds like you are proposing a 4-in-1. Please tell me I am wrong.

Yes, you are wrong. The fact that the Church has a divine nature does not create another Person of the Godhead, any more than Jesus taking on human nature created another member of the Godhead.

The Body of Christ is, indeed, a mystery beyond human comprehension. All we know is what has been revealed to us by the Apostles. In that revelation, it is clear that the Church is Holy because of the divine elements and actions.

Eph 5:25-30
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body.

She is holy because He nourishes adn cherishes her, not because of her human members.

 

[guanophore]

Certainly Jesus' work on the cross is God's gift of grace to us. I will not argue that point. You say, however, that we are "good." Please help me to reconcile this assertion with Christ's words:

Mark 10:18 “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.’”

I think you answered this one yourself.

Human beings are only good because God made them that way - we are made in His image and likeness.

And all this time I thought it had something to do with Adam’s disobedience to God:

Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned”

The two are not separated. When one is walking in grace, one does not disobey God.

So…we are sinful but good? Please explain. I will agree with you that God does not make junk. We are, after all, created in His image. For that reason alone every human being has dignity and worth. Nevertheless, that does not mean that we are good.

Being made in the image of God is “good” because He says it is “good”. Our dignity and worth stems from our creator, not from ourselves.

Perhaps you are thinking something else about “good” besides these characteristics?

Allow me to explain: No one seeks God of their own accord until prompted by God. God, in His grace, draws His elect to Him. Please do not get hung up on the word “elect.” Not only is it found in Scripture, but the RCC uses the term also. I do not want to argue predestination here. I am pretty sure, however, the RCC teaches that God’s grace is what enables us to move toward Him. In other words, He makes the first move. Am I wrong?

No, not wrong. But part of that “first move” is in our created being, where He made us to seek for him. We do not seek him only because we have been regenerated, but because it is in our nature to do so.

I do not know about fbl9, but apparently your answer to my question is that, yes, you are talking about the regenerate seeking God (since you mention faithless Jews and Gentiles as those who do not seek God). In this case we are in agreement since God has already inclined the hearts of the regenerate towards Him, and they do seek Him. So where is the error in my interpretation?

No, I believe the human soul is created with an innate ability and desire to seek for God. People refuse this gift of grace for themselves, though.

 

[guanophore]

Blaise Pascal says that we all have a God shaped vacuum in our hearts. I agree with him and with you; We (humans) were made for worship. The problem, however, is that until God’s operative grace begins to work in us, we are inclined to worship anything and everything other than God (and hence all of the idolatry in the world). Once again, Paul states this pretty clearly in Romans chapter 1:

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."

Having an inclination toward idolatry does not mean that people must be idolators. People that have not yet been regenerated do seek after God.

Maybe I should ask you, what do you mean by “regeneration”? I am assuming that you mean “born again” of the Spirit (and Catholics would say, of water and Spirit). Do you believe that a person who is not “born again” can seek God?

 

[guanophore]

As long as we understand that the unregenerate seek God because God first started to draw us to Himself (hence the meaning of prevenient) then we are in agreement. If anyone is trying to argue (as I thought fbl9 was) that the unregenerate seek God apart from this grace, then I will have to disagree.

I think that fb19 and I share the belief of prevenient grace, and that mankind cannot come to God without His taking the first step. I think we would both reject the view that only the regenerate can seek God.

 

[guanophore]

I have a good grasp on the Church’s teaching on original sin. It’s always good to refresh your understanding, so I’ll do just that. Why do you sin? Because you are seeking some good. Any good that we do is actually our search for God.

You didn’t answer my question. Being a non-Catholic, not sure you can. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the CC teach that man is inherently good but at the same time acknowledge that we have a fallen nature and a stain of original sin? It’s that “both/and” thing again.

Yes, this is consistent with the Apostolic Faith. Because we are wounded, we are unable to put ourselves in right relationship with God. The image of God is not gone, but it is marred so that human nature no longer reflects the divine image as He intended.

 

[fbl9]

I think that fb19 and I share the belief of prevenient grace, and that mankind cannot come to God without His taking the first step. I think we would both reject the view that only the regenerate can seek God.

Thank you.

 

[Solus_Christus]

If it is only an analogy, then why does Paul say that having sex with a prostitute is joining the members of Christ with her?

1 Cor 6:15-18
Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

You conveniently left out the first part of verse 15 in order to make your point. The first part of verse 15 reads: “Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?” Since Paul speaks in the plural, the most reasonable conclusion is that he is speaking here of our physicall bodies and not the Body of Christ, the Church (otherwise it would be in the singular).

Besides this, however, if the idea that the Church is the body of Christ is meant literally, then you enter into all sorts of absurdities. This is especially true since the RCC teaches transubstantiation. If the elements are the Real Presence and the Church is the physical body of Christ, then the inevitable conclusion is that you are consuming yourselves. I am sure there are other adverse consequences of this reasoning, but it can be rejected also on the basis that we know where Christ is physically at this very moment. After He ascended into Heaven He was “seated at the right hand of the Father” and will remain there “waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.” (Hebrews 10)

Who does Saul of Tarsus persecute?

The Church

And who does Jesus say Saul of Tarsus is persecuting?

Jesus. Yet this still does not mean that the Church is the physical body of Christ. What it means is that the world, in rejecting Christian witness, rejects Christ. The Church is also elsewhere declared to be the bride of Christ. Is Christ marrying His own body?

Honestly, I think we are arguing here about semantics. After listing the absurdities above resulting from literal and physical understanding of the Church being the Body of Christ, I have to believe you do not really think that. I think we both understand the meaning to be metaphorical in a sense, but with profound implications. For example, since Christ is physically in Heaven, He continues to carry out His work through His followers. In this sense, Christians are said to be His hands and feet in the world today. Likewise, when the Church in, say, North Korea is persecuted, Christ takes it personally as if His own self were being abused. These are all valid understandings of the analogy (I think we agree). Let’s stop arguing that it is not an analogy unless that is really what you mean(?)

 

[Solus_Christus]

Why do you sin? Because you are seeking some good.

I am incredulous. Do you really believe this? The entirety of Scripture resoundingly rejects such a notion. We sin because we are seeking good??? You must be kidding! If that were true, then why does God take such a negative view of sin? Why did He take such drastic and costly measures to deal with it? None of the Catholics here probably are willing to break ranks with you, even if they disagree, but I strongly suspect you are on your own with this one.

You didn’t answer my question. Being a non-Catholic, not sure you can. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the CC teach that man is inherently good but at the same time acknowledge that we have a fallen nature and a stain of original sin? It’s that “both/and” thing again.

Yes, I am probably the wrong person to answer that question, but I think guanophore did. And, after reading some Catholic material, it would seem you are both correct: The RCC does teach that humans are inherently good. I stand corrected.

 

[Solus_Christus]

Yes, you are wrong. The fact that the Church has a divine nature does not create another Person of the Godhead, any more than Jesus taking on human nature created another member of the Godhead.

The Body of Christ is, indeed, a mystery beyond human comprehension. All we know is what has been revealed to us by the Apostles. In that revelation, it is clear that the Church is Holy because of the divine elements and actions.

Eph 5:25-30
Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body.

She is holy because He nourishes adn cherishes her, not because of her human members.

“… the Church is Holy because of the divine elements and actions.”: Ignoring our disagreement on whether the Church is visible or invisible, I think I can agree with this statement.

After thinking on this some more, I think I have misunderstood what you mean when you say the Church has a divine nature. If you mean that the Church is devoted or appropriated to God, then I can agree. Or, if you mean that the Church proceeds from God, then I can agree with that as well. If you mean that the nature of the Church is God’s nature, however, then I automatically conclude that you are saying that the Church* is *God, and I certainly could not agree with that.

 

[Solus_Christus]

I think you answered this one yourself.

Human beings are only good because God made them that way - we are made in His image and likeness.

But Christ did not say “everyone is good” but rather “no one is good.” What did Christ mean by that?

Also, just for the record, are you using “good” synonymously with “righteous”?

The two are not separated. When one is walking in grace, one does not disobey God.

I think I will have to disagree with you on this one, but before I do I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. Please explain what you mean by “walking in grace.” Thanks in advance.

Being made in the image of God is “good” because He says it is “good”. Our dignity and worth stems from our creator, not from ourselves.

Perhaps you are thinking something else about “good” besides these characteristics?

I am in complete agreement with your two statements above. You mentioned earlier that The Fall had a negative impact on us. When I say that mankind is evil by nature, I am referring to the way we have been marred by The Fall. I agree that we retain dignity and worth because we are still made in His image, I will not argue that. What I mean, however, (and it is clear now that we disagree on this) is that mankind, since The Fall, is disposed against God.

If you will humor me, please allow me to explain why: God is the Creator of all things. Stop and think for a moment on His grandeur. He is infinite, eternal and, as Thomas Acquinas refers to Him, the First Cause. In other words, absolutely everything owes its very being to Him. In saying this I want to highlight our obligation as His creation and what He expects of us. It is His right to require of us that we honor, love, respect, worship, and obey Him. It would be pure chutzpah if any man demanded this, since we are all finite and created beings. But God is wholly other and it is His prerogative to require that we do not shortchange Him of the glory that is due to His name as our Maker. Of course, we are not automatons or robots and we do have a choice in the matter. The first option we have is to give God what He requires, and to give it joyfully. As His creation, we ought to be pleased to honor Him with our lives and offer to Him the throne of our lives. Said differently, it is appropriate if we crown Him Lord of our lives.

Our second option is to refuse His requirements and deny what is rightfully His. We can refuse to acknowledge Him in our lives and essentially usurp the throne of our lives and live according to our own desires. We can do this, but it is disobedience to God. Disobeying God is the quintessence of sin, and therefore of unrighteousness. Because of The Fall our natural inclination is to live the way we want without regard to God’s requirements. This is epitomized by the heathen who declares He does not want to become a Christian because he does not want to have to stop living in the sin which he finds so attractive. This natural inclination toward sin and against God is what I have in mind when I say that man is evil by nature.

 

[jmcrae]

You conveniently left out the first part of verse 15 in order to make your point. The first part of verse 15 reads: “Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?” Since Paul speaks in the plural, the most reasonable conclusion is that he is speaking here of our physicall bodies and not the Body of Christ, the Church (otherwise it would be in the singular).

Our physical bodies are part of Christ’s body, when we are members in good standing of the Church. St. Teresa of Avila said, “We are the hands and feet of Christ.” Our work, when we are being obedient to the Church, is Christ’s work in the world.

Besides this, however, if the idea that the Church is the body of Christ is meant literally, then you enter into all sorts of absurdities. This is especially true since the RCC teaches transubstantiation. If the elements are the Real Presence and the Church is the physical body of Christ, then the inevitable conclusion is that you are consuming yourselves.

Well - we do believe that when we receive Holy Communion, we are communing not only with Christ, but also with each other. This is why no one can come to the Altar who is not in a state of grace.

We understand the Church as the Bride of Christ, and the Eucharist as the Wedding Banquet. In marriage, we understand the bride and groom to be “one flesh” - one body (sometimes so literally, that the one body needs a crib and a name).

 

[Solus_Christus]

No, not wrong. But part of that “first move” is in our created being, where He made us to seek for him. We do not seek him only because we have been regenerated, but because it is in our nature to do so.

I agree that God has created within us a need for Him. I like that quote I supplied earlier by Blaise Pascal because it is dead-on. In this respect, yes, it is in our nature to seek God - it is innate to our being.

At the same time, however, mankind (because of The Fall) is prone to fulfill that innate need with anything and everything other than God. This is precisely what Paul is describing in Romans 1 when he says they (heathens) “did not honor him as God or give thanks to him” and “exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.” In short, mankind perverts God’s design for Himself within us, due to The Fall, and misappropriates that desire for God, lending it instead to idols. If you disagree with this conclusion I would be interested in learning your take on what Paul meant in Romans 1 with these words.

No, I believe the human soul is created with an innate ability and desire to seek for God. People refuse this gift of grace for themselves, though.

Why do people refuse this gift of grace? Do you agree that it is because people, in their fallen state, prefer the “fleeting pleasures of sin”?

 

[Solus_Christus]

Maybe I should ask you, what do you mean by “regeneration”? I am assuming that you mean “born again” of the Spirit (and Catholics would say, of water and Spirit). Do you believe that a person who is not “born again” can seek God?

Yes, by “regeneration” I mean “born again.” Yes, I believe that a person who is not “born again” can seek God, but only provided God has first begun to work in that individual’s heart. I believe we have agreed to identify this work of God as “prevenient grace.” Am I correct in saying this?

 

[Solus_Christus]

I think that fb19 and I share the belief of prevenient grace, and that mankind cannot come to God without His taking the first step. I think we would both reject the view that only the regenerate can seek God.

In this case we are all in agreement. I did not mean to imply that only the regenerate seek God. Perhaps my choice of words was poor. I appologize for the confusion.

 

[Solus_Christus]

Our physical bodies are part of Christ’s body, when we are members in good standing of the Church. St. Teresa of Avila said, “We are the hands and feet of Christ.” Our work, when we are being obedient to the Church, is Christ’s work in the world.

Agreed, and in fact I said something very similar in my post.

Well - we do believe that when we receive Holy Communion, we are communing not only with Christ, but also with each other. This is why no one can come to the Altar who is not in a state of grace.

I understand all of this. But the point I am trying to make is that “communing” is different than “consuming.” We commune with one another and with God - not consume one another (as would be required to believe if we were to assume a literal and physical interpretation of the Church being the body of Christ).

 

[Lampo]

We sin because we are seeking good??? You must be kidding!

Not kidding. Let’s try an experiment. Let’s say I struggle with the sin of stealing. I could be stealing for a number of reasons. Perhaps the pure enjoyment it brings to me. Maybe it’s to provide for my family. Maybe it’s to steal from the rich and give to the poor. In every circumstance there is the element of seeking the good. The good of enjoyment. The good of providing for my family. The good of providing for the poor. Wrong means to the end, but all in search of goodness. Immediate, self-gratification is good to us at the moment. The ultimate result is not good, but there is the good element nonetheless.

Pick any sin you like. Our hearts are restless and we try to remedy that sometimes by seeking what we think is good for us but is actually sinful. Our hearts will not have total rest until they rest totally on the Lord.

 

[Lampo]

The RCC does teach that humans are inherently good. I stand corrected.

Is it more accurate for you to abbreviate the Catholic Church as “RCC” or “CC”? Are you referring to only the diocese in Rome or the Catholic Church throughout the world?

 

[Solus_Christus]

Is it more accurate for you to abbreviate the Catholic Church as “RCC” or “CC”? Are you referring to only the diocese in Rome or the Catholic Church throughout the world?

The church to which you presumably belong is headquartered in Rome. That is where the leader of your church, the Pope, resides. If I were a Roman Catholic in good standing with the church, and I visited Kentucky and were looking to attend mass I would look in the phone book for a Roman Catholic church as opposed to, say, a Catholic church run by the Old Catholics. Perhaps you do not like the term, but it is hardly my own invention.

 

[Solus_Christus]

Not kidding. Let’s try an experiment. Let’s say I struggle with the sin of stealing. I could be stealing for a number of reasons. Perhaps the pure enjoyment it brings to me. Maybe it’s to provide for my family. Maybe it’s to steal from the rich and give to the poor. In every circumstance there is the element of seeking the good. The good of enjoyment. The good of providing for my family. The good of providing for the poor. Wrong means to the end, but all in search of goodness. Immediate, self-gratification is good to us at the moment. The ultimate result is not good, but there is the good element nonetheless.

Pick any sin you like. Our hearts are restless and we try to remedy that sometimes by seeking what we think is good for us but is actually sinful. Our hearts will not have total rest until they rest totally on the Lord.

If I estimate what is sinful to be good, then I reject what God has said and thus reveal my sinful nature. Let us use your example of stealing. God said “Thou shalt not steal.” If I say to myself, however, “I want to steal anyway because it brings to me pure enjoyment,” then I am seeking my own enjoyment in spite of God’s express command to the contrary. By elevating my own desire above God’s command my sinning is not in search of good but rather an effort to satisfy my own sinful desire through my own means. There is nothing good about that. It is not a noble or otherwise good pursuit. I am not seeking good in any sense of the meaning. If I were truly seeking good then I would be seeking to obey God’s command.