Where to start with the Carmelites?

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Lazerlike42

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In my discernment, I am recently being led towards considering the Carmelites, but I really don’t know where to start, and by that I mean, given the different flavors of Carmelite. To add to my confusion is my understanding (perhaps correct, perhaps mistaken) that, for lack of a badly needed better term, “loopiness” and/or unorthodoxy is something I might encounter with many Carmelites. I’d like to avoid this and get off on the right foot.

So… I’ve seen some folks knowledgeable about the Carmelites around… any thoughts?
 
Hello,

There are primarily two main branches of the Carmelite family. The Carmelites of the Ancient Observance (O.Carm) and the Discalced Carmelites (O.C.D.). The Discalced Carmelites were forged out of the reforms of Saint Teresa of Avila and Saint John of the Cross.

Here are some websites to get you started:

O.Carm

Main Website of the Order
North American Province of Saint Elias
Vocations Office for the Province of Saint Elias

O.C.D.

Main Website for the Order
Washington, D.C. - Province of the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Vocations Office for the Province of the Immaculate Heart of Mary
 
Here is the link to the O.Carm. Province of the Pure Heart of Mary
, my province.

carmelites.net/

It is based out of Chicago.

As for the “loopiness”, you will find that with just about any group today. Yes there are some that seem a bit off, but there are others that aren’t.

If you totally wish to stay away from “loopiness” then it would most likely be a good idea to stay away from all religious life.

If you have any questions feel free to send me a PM or email and I will do what I can to help you out.

I am currently in the Novitiate with the O.Carm. in the USA and it is a join novitiate between the PCM and the SEL provinces.
 
I understand that “loopiness” can be found anywhere. I was refering to the possibility that a particular group, rather than individuals, had this problem. In other words, if there are particular provinces, groups, etc. of Carmelites which are better to avoid, then I would like to know that. 🙂
 
Lazerlike42 said:
I understand that “loopiness” can be found anywhere. I was refering to the possibility that a particular group, rather than individuals, had this problem. In other words, if there are particular provinces, groups, etc. of Carmelites which are better to avoid, then I would like to know that. 🙂
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My knowledge of the Discalced Carmelite Friars comes from years of contact with them in the Western (California-Arizona) Province. This is one very sound - and growing! - group of men. I believe the same holds true for the Washington, D.C. Province.

discalcedcarmelites.com/ (Western Province)

The priest pictured at the site served my Secular Discalced Community in California as Spiritual Assistant and he is an excellent example of a Discalced Carmelite Friar.
 
Lazerlike42 said:
I understand that “loopiness” can be found anywhere. I was refering to the possibility that a particular group, rather than individuals, had this problem. In other words, if there are particular provinces, groups, etc. of Carmelites which are better to avoid, then I would like to know that. 🙂
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From my experience, the “loopiness” in the two provinces of the O.Carm.s in the USA is on an individual level rather than as a group.

I can only speak to the differences in the formation process and other promising things going on within my province. Again, if you email me or send me a PM, I would gladly talk this over with you.
 
carmelitemonks.org/index.html

I believe they have the TLM Mass.

They also pray the Office in the Ancient Carmelite Rite - only male group that does this that I know of.

They are monks, and from what I hear they are not “loopy”. God bless you!
 
daughterofmary said:
carmelitemonks.org/index.html

I believe they have the TLM Mass.

They also pray the Office in the Ancient Carmelite Rite - only male group that does this that I know of.

They are monks, and from what I hear they are not “loopy”. God bless you!
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This group is not affiliated with either the O.C,D. or the O.Carm. orders. They are a Public Association of the Christian Faithful under the local bishop.

I do not know how they can use the Carmelite Rite as the Rite was surrendered to Rome by the O.Carm. General Counsel in 1972 (give or take a year or so) and by the General Counsel of the O.C.D. a couple of years before that.
 
Thank you Br. David. I was hoping you would say something because I had heard that they were not affiliated, but did not know the particulars. I have heard that they are a wonderful community though.

I know that they do pray the Office in the Carmelite Rite. I do not know how they got about doing it. It would be interesting to know. The OCD nuns in Lincoln, Nebraska also pray using the Carmelite Rite. They are the only two that I have ever heard of that use it. I wrote to Nebraska asking about the Carmelite Rite and they explained some things to me about it. They are affiliated with the Discalced Carmelites, yet they still pray it. It would be interesting to know why both communities still do.
 
daughterofmary said:
Thank you Br. David. I was hoping you would say something because I had heard that they were not affiliated, but did not know the particulars. I have heard that they are a wonderful community though.

I know that they do pray the Office in the Carmelite Rite. I do not know how they got about doing it. It would be interesting to know. The OCD nuns in Lincoln, Nebraska also pray using the Carmelite Rite. They are the only two that I have ever heard of that use it. I wrote to Nebraska asking about the Carmelite Rite and they explained some things to me about it. They are affiliated with the Discalced Carmelites, yet they still pray it. It would be interesting to know why both communities still do.
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So they just pray the Office according to the Calendar of the Carmelites? The only thing I know of as the Carmelite Rite is the Eucharistic Liturgy.
 
ByzCath said:
So they just pray the Office according to the Calendar of the Carmelites? The only thing I know of as the Carmelite Rite is the Eucharistic Liturgy.
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Mother wrote this to me:

“You were asking about the Divine Office that we pray, which is the Carmelite Rite. The Carmelite Rite resembles the Roman Rite insofar as it is in Latin and that the number of the hours are the same as well as the basic structure of the psalms and readings. One of the differences among others, is that the calendar includes more Feasts in honour of our Blessed Mother and that the Nunc Dimittis at Compline has a special antiphon which changes according to the Feast or to the Season of the year.”

wiki has some info on it as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmelite_Rite
 
I have seen a Carmelite Office in the book store at Holy Hill, which is run by the OCD.

DaughterofMary, are you dicerning a vocation to Carmel?
 
Hello,
Lazerlike42 said:
I have seen a Carmelite Office in the book store at Holy Hill, which is run by the OCD.

DaughterofMary, are you dicerning a vocation to Carmel?
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The one I saw on their website was a supplement to the Liturgy of the Hours of the Roman Rite. Basically, it would have the propers for the Carmelite Saints that might not be on the Universal Calendar.
 
JMJ_coder said:
Hello,

The one I saw on their website was a supplement to the Liturgy of the Hours of the Roman Rite. Basically, it would have the propers for the Carmelite Saints that might not be on the Universal Calendar.
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Yes, this is what we use in the Chapel when we pray the Divine Office.

When one speaks of a Rite of a religious order they are usually speaking of the Eucharistic Liturgy of that order which differs from the one of the Latin Rite.

At least that has been my experience.

Each order has an addendum to the calendar for the Divine Office/Liturgy.
 
I read this on wiki
The oldest of these rites is that of the Benedictines with regard, not to the celebration of Mass, but only to that of the Liturgy of the Hours: see Benedictine Rite
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The Cistercian Rite used by a reformed branch of the Benedictines concerned the Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours.
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The Carthusian Rite is still in use.
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Two mendicant orders kept until the second half of the twentieth century their own rites: the Carmelite Rite and the Dominican Rite.
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Other religious orders had and still have their own customs and privileges, and their own calendar of liturgical feasts, as does every nation and indeed every diocese. Among the Benedictines, this holds also for each congregation (i.e. branch) of the order. But the rite that they use is the Roman Rite, not a liturgical rite of their own.
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I know the OCD nuns have the TLM so they do not have the Carmelite Rite in regards to the Mass. The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter celebrate Mass for them. They were the only OCD to have the indult before the MP. But regarding the LOH, it seems they pray it in he Carmelite Rite. And Mother says, when speaking of the Carmelite Rite, that it has the same structure as the Roman Rite, so I assume since she referred to the Roman Rite as a different Rite that they do not pray the Office in the Roman Rite.
I have seen a Carmelite Office in the book store at Holy Hill, which is run by the OCD.
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From what I understand from a friend of mine who knows much more about this then I do, is that the books for the Office in the Carmelite Rite are very very rare. My friend said very occasionally they are offered on ebay and when they are they sell for hundreds and hundreds of dollars. It has me wondering where the OCD nuns and the Carmelite monks are getting their books. 🤷 It was suggested to me though that if I was interested in that particular OCD community that I should just start praying the Office in Latin in the Roman Rite. Besides, Mother said their structure was the same in many ways. I suppose one could contact the monks and ask them.
DaughterofMary, are you dicerning a vocation to Carmel?
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Yes. Prayers!

God bless you!
 
daughterofmary said:
carmelitemonks.org/index.html

I believe they have the TLM Mass.

They also pray the Office in the Ancient Carmelite Rite - only male group that does this that I know of.

They are monks, and from what I hear they are not “loopy”. God bless you!
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I believe that this is the group which Brendan1104 on phatmass has visited and knows so much about.

You might visit phatmass and find his posts, or search under “Carmelite Wyoming” to find more info.

You may have to sign up on phatmass to do all of this or to PM him, if you haven’t joined phat already.
 
“From what I understand from a friend of mine who knows much more about this then I do, is that the books for the Office in the Carmelite Rite are very very rare. My friend said very occasionally they are offered on ebay and when they are they sell for hundreds and hundreds of dollars. It has me wondering where the OCD nuns and the Carmelite monks are getting their books.”

The Carmelite Monks of Wyoming were requested by the Carmelite Sisters of Nebraska to transcribe the old “Office in the Carmelite Rite” books so that new ones could be printed. The Monks did this(a very slow and demanding task) and completed it a few years ago. Therefore the Monks and the Sisters have plenty of copies of the reprinted book.

The Carmelite Monks of Wyoming were guests on EWTN’s “Life on the Rock” just last week. They are a group of men striving for holiness through the contemplative vocation. They are a young, stuggling community in a small Monastery, but have many more inquiries about possible vocations than they have room for. They are in the process of building a larger Monastery so they can invite more men to join them.
 
The Carmelite Monks of Wyoming were requested by the Carmelite Sisters of Nebraska to transcribe the old “Office in the Carmelite Rite” books so that new ones could be printed. The Monks did this(a very slow and demanding task) and completed it a few years ago. Therefore the Monks and the Sisters have plenty of copies of the reprinted book.
Click to expand...
The Carmelite Monks of Wyoming were guests on EWTN’s “Life on the Rock” just last week. They are a group of men striving for holiness through the contemplative vocation. They are a young, stuggling community in a small Monastery, but have many more inquiries about possible vocations than they have room for. They are in the process of building a larger Monastery so they can invite more men to join them.
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Thank you. I hadn’t known that. Very interesting.

I listened to the episode of Life on the Rock through the ewtn library. It was a very good episode, and I was happily surprised to find that they are having a good size group of new postulants this next year! 🙂

Thank you again for sharing! They seem absolutely wonderful!

Here is the link to listen and watch the episode: ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/searchprog.asp?pgnu=9&T1=Life%20on%20the%20Rock

It is the second one from the bottom: #225
 
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