Where to study Liturgy?

[romanmissle]

I’m about to graduate with my BA in philosophy and theology, and am currently looking at graduate schools in which to study liturgy/sacramental theology (with getting my MA or equivalent and working towards a doctorate, hopefully to work towards a teaching career). Currently I’m looking at St. Mary of the Lake (Mundelein Seminary), Catholic University of America, and Notre Dame (am somewhat wary of the last one, knowing there is good and bad there, but am unfamiliar with the liturgy department).

I am of a more traditionalist bent (reformist is okay too), and while St. Mary of the Lake looks fairly faithful, it doesn’t seem to be into traditionalism too much.

Any ideas on these or other schools? Thanks!

 

[benedictgal]

Run, don’t walk, away from Notre Dame. It’s pretty much the bastion of liberalism in the worst way when it comes to the Liturgy. I would try Ave Maria University where Fr. Fessio was, for awhile. Stuebbenville (where Dr. Scott Hahn teaches) might be an option, as would be the University of Dallas.

If anything, the best thing to do, for right now, is to read all of the Church’s official documents (the ones from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) as well as books written by Pope Benedict XVI, Msgr. Romano Guardini and Scott Hahn. Dom Alcuin Reid also has some very good books, in particular, the Organic Development of the Liturgy. These books and resources have greatly helped me.

 

[Joannm]

I’m about to graduate with my BA in philosophy and theology, and am currently looking at graduate schools in which to study liturgy/sacramental theology (with getting my MA or equivalent and working towards a doctorate, hopefully to work towards a teaching career). Currently I’m looking at St. Mary of the Lake (Mundelein Seminary), Catholic University of America, and Notre Dame (am somewhat wary of the last one, knowing there is good and bad there, but am unfamiliar with the liturgy department).

I am of a more traditionalist bent (reformist is okay too), and while St. Mary of the Lake looks fairly faithful, it doesn’t seem to be into traditionalism too much.

Any ideas on these or other schools? Thanks!

If you are planning on working towards a PhD or STD in liturgy eventually, plan on going to a school for your MA that also offers the doctorate, or that has a good number of MA or MTS graduates that go on for the doctorate. Also a school with a more established program will be more favored when looking into a doctoral program.

BTW the liturgy program at Notre Dame (MTS, MA and PhD) is probably the most respected liturgy degree program in the country. St. John’s Collegeville also has a wonderful MA program in liturgy, as does CUA (CUA also offer an STD. Also look to see where the professors received their degrees. San Anselmo in Rome is the premier liturgical institute and an STD from there pulls a lot of weight when it come to teaching.

 

[benedictgal]

BTW the liturgy program at Notre Dame (MTS, MA and PhD) is probably the most respected liturgy degree program in the country. St. John’s Collegeville also has a wonderful MA program in liturgy, as does CUA (CUA also offer an STD. Also look to see where the professors received their degrees. San Anselmo in Rome is the premier liturgical institute and an STD from there pulls a lot of weight when it come to teaching.

Having had experience with a few graduates from the Notre Dame program, I would respectfully disagree with you Joannm. If you catch one of their telecasts on DirecTV’s channel 101, you will find that the celebrants tend to add and subtract from the texts. They are also fairly liberal in the way they view the liturgy. Notre Dame is also not one of the universities recommended by the Neuman Center’s Catholic Universities ranking. CUA also tends to have some liberal undertones, but, not as bad as Notre Dame.

 

[Joannm]

Having had experience with a few graduates from the Notre Dame program, I would respectfully disagree with you Joannm. If you catch one of their telecasts on DirecTV’s channel 101, you will find that the celebrants tend to add and subtract from the texts. They are also fairly liberal in the way they view the liturgy. Notre Dame is also not one of the universities recommended by the Neuman Center’s Catholic Universities ranking. CUA also tends to have some liberal undertones, but, not as bad as Notre Dame.

The telecast mass from the Basilica of the Sacred Heart at ND. (dubbed the Halmark Mass) has nothing to do with the liturgy dept. at ND…it is the Holy Cross priests who are in charge of that Mass. In fact, it is campus ministry, who has nothing to do with the liturgy dept. as well, that organises and prepares campus liturgies. The folks in the liturgy program also have some problems with the liturgies at ND at times but they don’t have much say in what happens.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Joannm,

Right – I think thats an important distinction. My understanding is that Notre Dame does have one of the strongest and serious liturgical studies departments in the country.

VC

 

[benedictgal]

The telecast mass from the Basilica of the Sacred Heart at ND. (dubbed the Halmark Mass) has nothing to do with the liturgy dept. at ND…it is the Holy Cross priests who are in charge of that Mass. In fact, it is campus ministry, who has nothing to do with the liturgy dept. as well, that organises and prepares campus liturgies. The folks in the liturgy program also have some problems with the liturgies at ND at times but they don’t have much say in what happens.

That being said, I still have some concerns with anyone going to study liturgy at Notre Dame. At the Paulist Parish I attended, the staff had invited folks from that particular university to talk to our liturgy committee about sanctuary rennovations. Needless to say, the team from ND was emphasizing community and how we needed to bring things down closer to the people and other stuff that really didn’t amount to anything. I actually debated with one fo the professors and challenged him on many of his points.

They went on and on emphasizing community that somehow the Divine Majesty of God was lost along the way. Frankly, were I to puruse liturgical studies, Notre Dame is the last place I would visit. I would rather go to a university that is still Catholic in nature and in principle, and faithful to Rome. I can’t say that for Notre Dame.

 

[Domer1997]

I wouldn’t exactly call the liturgies at ND liberal. …especially the Basilica Masses are especially reverent.

…and the Tridentine each week ! …see links below.

campusministry.nd.edu/liturgymusic/tridentine_mass.html

campusministry.nd.edu/liturgymusic/documents/first_time_at_latin_mass.pdf

basilica.nd.edu/

Good luck & God Bless!

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Good for you for standing up to them, if you thought they were off the mark Benedictgal.

Do you recall who, exactly, the people were? Were they undergrads, or graduate students? Was this recent? (That could make a difference).

You mentioned a professor - is he still a current professor? Did he teach in the liturgical studies program, or was he in a different department?

VC

 

[benedictgal]

Good for you for standing up to them, if you thought they were off the mark Benedictgal.

Do you recall who, exactly, the people were? Were they undergrads, or graduate students? Was this recent? (That could make a difference).

You mentioned a professor - is he still a current professor? Did he teach in the liturgical studies program, or was he in a different department?

VC

This was 12 years ago; however, from my understanding, things haven’t changed that much. One of them was Fr. Andrew Cifirni and he was one of their top guns, from what the Paulists had said. Oddly enough, the parishioners didn’t seem to go with the changes ND suggested. The Pastor was all for it, but they never got the money raised and, as late as 2006, things were still the same. Although I will be going back some time this month for the parish’s 100th Anniversary as I’m curious to see how things look.

Interestingly enough, we have some Polish priests in our diocese who do not look very kindly on the Notre Dame liturgy department. A couple of them are from the school of JPII and do not like what they’ve seen coming out of ND.

I think the only rare exception that I’ve seen is that our new diocesan director of Divine Worship (a priest) has his PhD from Notre Dame. He does okay on quite a few things, but has some rather strange ideas about others (EHMCs still approach altar during the Agnus Dei, among items, and having kids come to the altar during the Offertory for a blessing, , a practice he retained from the previous administrator ).

There was something rather odd that happened for two Holy Thursdays in a row. When my PV served as the original rector, before the second administrator took over, we had the altar of repose in the back chapel. In 2006 and again, this year, all the cathedral had was stripped linens (which is supposed to happen); however, instead of placing our Lord in the Tabernacle, they had the ciborium out on the side altar (Marian side) with a candle next to it. From what I was told, that was the altar of repose (the back chapel was not used) and that the bishop was okay with that. Still, it makes me wonder.

At least he’s gotten rid of the Mariachis, for which I am very grateful. From what one of the liturgical musicians tells me, he does seem to have an allergy to Latin.

Other than the foibles, however, he’s been pretty good and is working with my dad to correct some very serious problems.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Thanks for the info Benedictgal.

Hopefully, when you do return to that church you will find a glorious and proper sanctuary.

I’m really not familiar with Fr. Andrew Ciferni, except from a cursory search it looks like he studied at Notre Dame in the early 70’s. In the 90’s when your encounter took place (assuming it was about 12 years ago) he was a professor of liturgy at Washington Theological Union, not Notre Dame.

I’m not questioning your opinion about Notre Dame – you must feel you have good reasons upon which to base it. My opinion differs from yours, though, especially as it relates to the OP. I read the OP as having already successfully graduated with a degree in theology and have had weathered his “formative” years unscathed by modernism, and come through undergrad with his catholic faith hale and hearty. Since he (or she) seems to want to become an academic in the field of liturgy, and make that his gainful employment, I think he (or she) would be doing himself a disservice not looking at Notre Dame’s doctoral program in liturgy. A doctorate from ND could go a long way.

Besides, he or she sounds like the kind of people we need at ND.

VC

 

[Joannm]

This was 12 years ago; however, from my understanding, things haven’t changed that much. One of them was Fr. Andrew Cifirni and he was one of their top guns, from what the Paulists had said. Oddly enough, the parishioners didn’t seem to go with the changes ND suggested. The Pastor was all for it, but they never got the money raised and, as late as 2006, things were still the same. Although I will be going back some time this month for the parish’s 100th Anniversary as I’m curious to see how things look.

Interestingly enough, we have some Polish priests in our diocese who do not look very kindly on the Notre Dame liturgy department. A couple of them are from the school of JPII and do not like what they’ve seen coming out of ND.

I think the only rare exception that I’ve seen is that our new diocesan director of Divine Worship (a priest) has his PhD from Notre Dame. He does okay on quite a few things, but has some rather strange ideas about others (EHMCs still approach altar during the Agnus Dei, among items, and having kids come to the altar during the Offertory for a blessing, , a practice he retained from the previous administrator ).

There was something rather odd that happened for two Holy Thursdays in a row. When my PV served as the original rector, before the second administrator took over, we had the altar of repose in the back chapel. In 2006 and again, this year, all the cathedral had was stripped linens (which is supposed to happen); however, instead of placing our Lord in the Tabernacle, they had the ciborium out on the side altar (Marian side) with a candle next to it. From what I was told, that was the altar of repose (the back chapel was not used) and that the bishop was okay with that. Still, it makes me wonder.

At least he’s gotten rid of the Mariachis, for which I am very grateful. From what one of the liturgical musicians tells me, he does seem to have an allergy to Latin.

Other than the foibles, however, he’s been pretty good and is working with my dad to correct some very serious problems.

The altar of repose does not have to have a tabernacle. A closed ciborium is allowable. In my old parish we had a similar altar of repose off to the side of the sanctuary.

 

[KatieD]

I’m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this, but since we’re discussing studying the Liturgy, can anyone recommend materials/books to study on my own? I’m not looking to earn any sort of degree, I just want to understand the Liturgy and its requirements. I sit on the Liturgy committee at my parish, and we have a Liturgy Director who definitely leans to the left - everyone belongs up at the altar (we just got the lectors back down into the congregation), we can have everyone process in with the priest (like 8 or 9 EMHC’s), etc. Fortunately, our new pastor seems much more orthodox and has no trouble telling this person “no” when she proposes some of her ideas. I’d like to understand things better - any help or recommendations you can make would be appreciated!

 

[benedictgal]

The altar of repose does not have to have a tabernacle. A closed ciborium is allowable. In my old parish we had a similar altar of repose off to the side of the sanctuary.

Sorry to dispute you, bu you are wrong. In 1988, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments wrote a circular letter entitled Paschale Solemnitatis that lists specific guidelines for Holy Thursday:

[Edited by Moderator]

1. For the reservation of the Blessed Sacrament, a place should be prepared and adorned in such a way as to be conducive to prayer and meditation; that sobriety appropriate to the liturgy of these days is enjoined, to the avoidance or suppression of all abuses. [55]

When the tabernacle is in a chapel separated from the central part of the church, it is appropriate to prepare the place of repose and adoration there.

1. The Blessed Sacrament should be reserved in a closed tabernacle or pyx. Under no circumstances may it be exposed in a monstrance.

[Edited by Moderator]

To the OP, I did not mean to hijack this thread; however, I needed to show that sometimes, even folks with graduate degrees from ND make mistakes. Just be careful.

 

[Windmill]

I’m not sure if this is the correct place to ask this, but since we’re discussing studying the Liturgy, can anyone recommend materials/books to study on my own? I’m not looking to earn any sort of degree, I just want to understand the Liturgy and its requirements. I sit on the Liturgy committee at my parish, and we have a Liturgy Director who definitely leans to the left - everyone belongs up at the altar (we just got the lectors back down into the congregation), we can have everyone process in with the priest (like 8 or 9 EMHC’s), etc. Fortunately, our new pastor seems much more orthodox and has no trouble telling this person “no” when she proposes some of her ideas. I’d like to understand things better - any help or recommendations you can make would be appreciated!

Hey KatieD,

A couple of years back, a group of my buddies and I did a 1-year study club on liturgy. We read a book a month and then met for coffee and breakfast at an IHOP on the first Saturday morning of each month to discuss the book just completed. Here are great books I’d recommend:

Spirit of the Liturgy (Ratzinger)

Reform of the Roman Rite (Gamber)

Liturgy Betrayed (Crouan)

Reform of the Reform: A Debate (Kocik)

Heresy of Formlessness (Mosebach)

Organic Development of the Liturgy (Reid)

Redemptionis Sacramentum (Stravinskas)

Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite (Elliott)

Turning Toward the Lord (Lang)

Trojan Horse in the City of God (vonHildebrand)

Sacred Then, and Sacred Now (Woods)

Looking Again at the Question of the Liturgy (Ratzinger/Reid)

 

[Windmill]

I forgot, the Gamber book is back in print. Try this link instead of the one I gave above:

Reform of the Roman Rite (Gamber)

 

[KatieD]

Thanks Windmill! This is terrific - I’ll definitely take a look at these. I appreciate your help!

 

[JButky]

Any ideas on these or other schools? Thanks!

holyapostles.edu/

Holy Apostles in CT is quite good. The seminarians, deacons, etc, have special retreats for homeschoolers there for confirmation preparation and many other things. They offer a Traditional Latin Mass as well as chant. My children have had good experiences there and some of my traditionalist friends who have taken courses there have been very pleased.

Joe B