Where was Jesus born?

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james_neville

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Tonight at a dinner with my priest we were talking about the infancy narrative of luke. From this conversation, the priest said something which i thought was interesting and i wanted to know more about how we can reconcile the events leading up to the birth of Jesus.

In Luke it is clear Mary and her husband travelled from Nazareth to Bethlehem, (and indicates Nazareth as their hometown) where as in matthew the hometown appears to be Bethlehem.

How do we reconcile this as christians as it would appear the bible is contradicting here saying that their hometown was in two different locations.
 
Hi James,

Matthew does not say that they made their permanent home in Bethlehem. It just says that they were visited there by the Magi. Then they went to Egypt, and when they returned, they lived ln Nazareth.

I don’t find it strange that they stayed in Bethlehem for a while after the birth of Jesus. Elizabeth lived in Judea. Possibly they had relatives or friends in or around Bethlehem.

Verbum
 
Bit of history may clarify this. Yes Mary and Joseph did live in Nazareth but they were required to travel to Josephs’ hometown of Bethlehem for the Roman census (something not often noted and explains all the travellers on the road and the lack of a room) - and for fullfilment of prophecy (Old Testament) for the birth of the messiah (born into the house of David).
 
I can remember reading the text below at a school mass when I was a child but I have to confess I didn’t know that Matthews gospel had Bethlehem as the original home town

From Luke 2: 1-20

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, everyone into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
 
Bit of history may clarify this. Yes Mary and Joseph did live in Nazareth but they were required to travel to Josephs’ hometown of Bethlehem for the Roman census (something not often noted and explains all the travellers on the road and the lack of a room) - and for fullfilment of prophecy (Old Testament) for the birth of the messiah (born into the house of David).
As well, we know that Jesus was known as a Nazarene, from the inscription that Pilate placed on the cross. When Jesus’ popularity was infuriating the chief priests and Pharisees, they sought to arrest Him, but the guards did not, saying “No one has ever spoken like this.” Nicodemus defended our Lord before the enraged gathering by asking the chief priests and Pharisees if the Law condemned a man without examining him. They told him, “Search the scriptures and see that no prophet arises from Galilee.” Nazareth, of course, is in Galilee. But, the chief priests and Pharisees were wrong in that Jesus was actually of Bethlehem, the “City of David” or “City of Bread.”
 
As well, we know that Jesus was known as a Nazarene, from the inscription that Pilate placed on the cross. When Jesus’ popularity was infuriating the chief priests and Pharisees, they sought to arrest Him, but the guards did not, saying “No one has ever spoken like this.” Nicodemus defended our Lord before the enraged gathering by asking the chief priests and Pharisees if the Law condemned a man without examining him. They told him, “Search the scriptures and see that no prophet arises from Galilee.” Nazareth, of course, is in Galilee. But, the chief priests and Pharisees were wrong in that Jesus was actually of Bethlehem, the “City of David” or “City of Bread.”
There is a rather curious passage in John (7:40-44) which goes:

When they heard these words, some of the people said, “This really is the Prophet.” Others said, “This is the Christ.” But some said, “Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the offspring of David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?” So there was a division among the people over him. Some of them wanted to arrest him, but no one laid hands on him.

Some people assume that John was here attesting to a tradition which has Jesus being not born in Bethlehem, all the while subtly picking on the tradition which says that He was; at least the people in the narrative don’t seem to be aware of it. (Yes, there are people who believe that the idea that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is not historical, but is something just inferred by the evangelists from OT prophecies like Micah 5:2-3 because of Jesus’ lineage and/or their conviction that He was the Messiah - in reality, Jesus would have been born in Nazareth all along. It is a very “with the grain” tradition that they think it’s highly suspicious. 🤷) The problem is, this could very well be an instance of Johannine dramatic irony, where the audience sees on two levels. First, the audience ‘knows’ that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but they also (and more importantly for John) ‘know’ that Jesus’ true origins do not lie in earthly places like the Galilee or Bethlehem, but in Heaven (cf. John 1:1).
 
There is a rather curious passage in John (7:40-44) which goes:

When they heard these words, some of the people said, “This really is the Prophet.” Others said, “This is the Christ.” But some said, “Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the offspring of David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?” So there was a division among the people over him. Some of them wanted to arrest him, but no one laid hands on him.

Some people assume that John was here attesting to a tradition which has Jesus being not born in Bethlehem, all the while subtly picking on the tradition which says that He was; at least the people in the narrative don’t seem to be aware of it. (Yes, there are people who believe that the idea that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is not historical, but is something just inferred by the evangelists from OT prophecies like Micah 5:2-3 because of Jesus’ lineage and/or their conviction that He was the Messiah - in reality, Jesus would have been born in Nazareth all along. It is a very “with the grain” tradition that they think it’s highly suspicious. 🤷) The problem is, this could very well be an instance of Johannine dramatic irony, where the audience sees on two levels. First, the audience ‘knows’ that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but they also (and more importantly for John) ‘know’ that Jesus’ true origins do not lie in earthly places like the Galilee or Bethlehem, but in Heaven (cf. John 1:1).
There seems to be a very selective interpretation of the Gospels. Some of these people who consider the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem to be non-historical also consider the Gospel of John to be historically unreliable, but they consider that Johanine passage to “prove” that Jesus’ Bethlehem birth is an invention of Matthew and Luke. We have to remember that there is a passage in John that seems to assume the insertion of the Synoptics, and if John knew of the Synoptics, he wouldn’t write something that contradicts it. Paul, the first person to write about Jesus, mentions Jesus being born of David’s bloodline, which must pressupose the fulfillment of a prophecy.
 
Thanks for clarifying but i think i am still a little confused. i know mary and jo were to travel to Bethlehem for the “census” but the fact is a large proportion of scholars and historians claim there is no evidence that this “census” in fact existed as it would have been recorded.

My other issue is that Luke especially uses typology (depicting mary as the ark of the new covenant) when comparing to at the book of Samuel.

By using this language technique, doesn’t this diminish the historicity of the events that took place at the birth if the writing of events were written to show an allusion to the old testament? i.e. john dancing in elizabeth’s womb, the people dancing in front of the ark, mary staying with lizzy (judea) for 3 months, the ark staying in judea for 3 months.

If this allusion was written around the actual events, wouldn’t these allusions distort the actual historical events? Thereby demonstrating a contradiction to the bibles claim to hold nothing but the truth (I do in fact believe it to be all truthful), if the historical truth is altered by the literary style of the writings?

Sorry if i wasn’t clear in the last paragraph, as u can see i am a bit confused.
 
Thanks for clarifying but i think i am still a little confused. i know mary and jo were to travel to Bethlehem for the “census” but the fact is a large proportion of scholars and historians claim there is no evidence that this “census” in fact existed as it would have been recorded.

My other issue is that Luke especially uses typology (depicting mary as the ark of the new covenant) when comparing to at the book of Samuel.

By using this language technique, doesn’t this diminish the historicity of the events that took place at the birth if the writing of events were written to show an allusion to the old testament? i.e. john dancing in elizabeth’s womb, the people dancing in front of the ark, mary staying with lizzy (judea) for 3 months, the ark staying in judea for 3 months.

If this allusion was written around the actual events, wouldn’t these allusions distort the actual historical events? Thereby demonstrating a contradiction to the bibles claim to hold nothing but the truth (I do in fact believe it to be all truthful), if the historical truth is altered by the literary style of the writings?

Sorry if i wasn’t clear in the last paragraph, as u can see i am a bit confused.
Couldn’t Luke have realized that the resemblance of Jesus’ birth with these OT passages to be so overwhelming that he decided to point out the parallels between the two narratives, without any harm to the historical truth?
 
I met a Palestinian Catholic man who was studying t a Jesuit university in the US. He and his family live within sight of the fields where the angel appeared to the shepherds to announce Jesus’ birth. This has been handed on through the generations within the area of Bethlehem. To pull off the moving of Jesus’ birth from somewhere else to Bethlehem, Luke would have had to coordinate this with all of the known residents of the City of David. Not very likely.
 
As per your question, OP, I think that most learned scholars agree he was most likely born in Nazareth.
As I often like to say, one should be very careful when using words like “many” or “most” or “the majority of” in areas like biblical scholarship, where you can hardly get one person to completely agree with the other and where divergences in opinion range across the spectrum. By “most learned scholars,” what exactly did you mean? Did you mean by “most” that this is an opinion held throughout academia, from the ‘liberal’ to the ‘conservative’? And by “learned,” do you imply that scholars who believe that the tradition that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is grounded in historical fact are not ‘learned’? 😉
 
🙂
So true.
Better I say…all the scholars I have read so far–I guess a few dozen–think there was no census. But I bet there are a lot of scholars out there I have not read yet!
Can you please provide us their names? 🙂
 
I could furnish you with some of them (others I read a few years ago, so I can’t remember those authors’ names)…but problem is, I have mentioned them here before and been instructed not to do so again.
I assume it is against the rules of the forum.
Hmm, okay then. How unfortunate. 😊
 
The late historian Warren Carroll in his book “The Founding of Christendom” discusses many census and provided evidence of such.
I found it interesting that the Gospel of Matthew and Mark only share that Jesus was born in Nazareth and the virgin birth.
 
The late historian Warren Carroll in his book “The Founding of Christendom” discusses many census and provided evidence of such.
I found it interesting that the Gospel of Matthew and Mark only share that Jesus was born in Nazareth and the virgin birth.
Actually I think you mean Mark. Matthew, along with Luke agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Even then, Mark does not explicitly mention that Jesus was “born” in Nazareth (or Nazaret, as he spells it) - in fact, Jesus appears very abruptly, already a fully-formed adult - but only that “And it came to be in those days, Jesus came from Nazaret of the Galilee, and was baptized in the Jordan by John.”
 
Yes, I think the challenge here is…the specific census’ he writes about are not at the time of Jesus’ birth?
I think something I posted some minutes ago on another thread might be of some use here also:
patrick457 said:
And that’s the point. People are projecting their modern expectations and biases on Luke, who lived in a different time and culture than ours. It is very difficult to fix ancient dates for a number of reasons; one is because the ancient world did not have a uniform calendar, with the result that people express time periods in diverse ways. Take another example from Luke and Josephus (Antiquities 17.481):

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness.

This calamity [Herod the Great’s capture of Jerusalem and execution of Antigonus] befell the city of Jerusalem during the consulship at Rome of Marcus Agrippa and Caninius Gallus, in the hundred and twenty-fifth Olympiad, in the third month, on the day of the Fast, as if it were a recurrence of the misfortune which came upon the Jews in the time of Pompey, for they were captured by Sossius on the very same day, twenty-seven years later.

It would have been easier for Luke or Josephus to just have said “In the year 29” or “around 37 BC” like we do, but ancient authors who wrote in Greek for an empire-wide audience did not have this option. They had to refer to several markers of time; the event in question happened when several events overlapped. It is hard enough as it is for us now, but the lack of a common calendar meant that ancient historians, who were accustomed to their own way of dating, had a harder time than we do in recording and remembering dates. They also had few ‘fallbacks’: they did not have newspapers or Wikipedia or Google. 😉

Note that Luke speaks of “the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas.” In reality, however, there could only be one high priest at a time, not to mention that at least three persons held the position in between the high priesthoods of Annas, aka Ananus (6-15) and Caiaphas (18-36): Ishmael ben Fabus (15-16), Eleazar ben Ananus (16-17), and Simon ben Camithus (17-18), according to Josephus. We can commend Luke in that at least he knows the names of the two most influential and longest-serving high priests of the period. Josephus’ quotation is even more problematic, and scholars have devoted equally long amounts of time in trying to resolve them (Emil Schürer required at least two pages of fine print in his History of the Jewish People on this issue alone!). The problem with Josephus, to summarize, is that a study of all the evidence about the conquests of Jerusalem by Pompey and Herod makes it virtually impossible to believe that Herod’s conquest took place twenty-seven years to the day after Pompey’s. It is much more easier to believe that Josephus simply liked dating calamities on the same day as some previous disaster (cf. also War 6.250, where Josephus claims that the destruction of Jerusalem on 70 fell on the same day as the one in 587 BC! Note however that this literary license is not unique to Josephus).

I think sometimes that many scholars are themselves ‘inerrantists’: they pick on a passage in Josephus or the NT and assume it as a sort of a modern encyclopedia article, supposing that one got it totally right while the others are completely wrong. We cannot get at something by just deciding dogmatically that this sentence is telling the unvarnished truth while the following sentence is utter fiction: the ‘truth’ will usually lie somewhere in between. Ancient history is very difficult and is something that requires both common sense and a good feel for sources.
 
Actually I think you mean Mark. Matthew, along with Luke agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Even then, Mark does not explicitly mention that Jesus was “born” in Nazareth (or Nazareth, as he spells it) - in fact, Jesus appears very abruptly, already a fully-formed adult - but only that “And it came to be in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of the Galilee, and was baptized in the Jordan by John.”
No I was meaning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark since they are the only ones that mention the birth of Jesus. Comparing them the only thing they agree on is the Virgin birth and Jesus being born in Bethlehem.
 
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