Where was Peter buried?

[mchale]

Would you please quote your question again. Maybe also the other question about “without heirarchy being non-biblical”. Thank you. Ralph

The original question was from the poster I responded to and was in their post. I will leave it to them to post if a fourth time if they so choose.

My point on the other hand was a response to your claim that your church has no heirarchy other than Jesus at its head.

I asked specifically if the pastor did not have any authority that other members didn’t have, and if not, then would you be allowed to go up and preach on any Sunday you choose to?

I then pointed out that Biblical Church had a clearly defined heirarchy. The apostles were definitely the leaders of the Early Church in Jerusalem and they also appointed deacons who had special authority in the community. Paul and the apostles also generally appointed overseers and elders (literally episcopi and presbyers) over the communities they founded. So therefore, not having a heirarchy is actually non biblical.

–
Bill

 

[Marsha_Adams]

To me its quite simple, Adam was the first to sin, right, as original means “first”, therefore this IS the original sin. The bible says that we were all “concieved in sin”. Believe me, God came to die for all of us, because since Adam we are all sinners, that is why He died for all. People don’t have to commit sin, they are all ready sinners. Ralph

So you believe that if a baby dies unbaptized it goes straight to hell because it is a sinner?

 

[Randy_Carson]

So you believe that if a baby dies unbaptized it goes straight to hell because it is a sinner?

The Protestant will typically answer “no” to this question. The baby is “saved”.

However, at some point, a child reaches the age of reason and is no longer assured of heaven apart from making a “decision for Christ”. Failure to do so leads to hell.

Thus, salvation can be lost.

So much for the false doctrine commonly known as “eternal security” or “once saved, always saved”.

 

[ralphy]

Ralph-

Go and ask your pastor these questions:

Can a child below the age of reason sin?
Can someone who is mentally deficient sin?

The answer I hope he gives you is “no”.

Therefore, not ALL have sinned.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole.

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”.

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: **“**As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions.

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.

But…what does this have to do with the burial place of Peter?

Galations 3:22 says " but the scripture has concluded all under sin". Can a child below the age of reason sin, yes, however as far as I can see from scripture, they will not be held accountable for their sin until they reach the age of reason, when they can understand what they are doing. As for mentally deficient children (I have a grandchild like that), I believe they will not be held accountable for their sins, unless they are cured from this problem and are able to understand. From that point on they will responsible for their sin. According to scripture, all will die, it states “it is appointed unto man, once to die and after this the judgemennt”. God has the power and the pleasure to do what He likes, as you say, He has taken some home without death. As you do not believe in the “rapture”, you also don’t believe that some will be taken from this earth without dying, I hope you don’t miss it, I would like to see you come along. Ralph

 

[Randy_Carson]

Galations 3:22 says " but the scripture has concluded all under sin". Can a child below the age of reason sin, yes, however as far as I can see from scripture, they will not be held accountable for their sin until they reach the age of reason, when they can understand what they are doing. As for mentally deficient children (I have a grandchild like that), I believe they will not be held accountable for their sins, unless they are cured from this problem and are able to understand. From that point on they will responsible for their sin. According to scripture, all will die, it states “it is appointed unto man, once to die and after this the judgemennt”. God has the power and the pleasure to do what He likes, as you say, He has taken some home without death. As you do not believe in the “rapture”, you also don’t believe that some will be taken from this earth without dying, I hope you don’t miss it, I would like to see you come along. Ralph

Ralphy-

I’ve read lots of books concerning the Rapture. I grew up reading Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth and similar books. I still remember the classic “88 Reasons why the Rapture will occur in 1988”. Obviously, it didn’t.

However, there is no biblical basis for the rapture, and the doctrine was completely unknown prior to the 1830’s. This is a theological novum, a relatively recent “tradition of men” – Protestant men.

Now to your first point: “All will die”…is this like “for all have sinned”?

Well, Elija did not die. Nor did Enoch. So, the Bible proves that all will NOT die.

Similarly, ALL will NOT sin. Most? Sure. You and me? you betcha.

But not ALL.

 

[ralphy]

Ralphy-

I’ve read lots of books concerning the Rapture. I grew up reading Hal Lindsey’s Late Great Planet Earth and similar books. I still remember the classic “88 Reasons why the Rapture will occur in 1988”. Obviously, it didn’t.

However, there is no biblical basis for the rapture, and the doctrine was completely unknown prior to the 1830’s. This is a theological novum, a relatively recent “tradition of men” – Protestant men.

Now to your first point: “All will die”…is this like “for all have sinned”?

Well, Elija did not die. Nor did Enoch. So, the Bible proves that all will NOT die.

Similarly, ALL will NOT sin. Most? Sure. You and me? you betcha.

But not ALL.

My friend the bible say ALL have sinned. If you read my quote closely you will see that God did take some people out from earth without dying, that is His choice. The rapture I will explain at a later date. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

Ralphy, I’m a bit confused about the protestant ideas around this. If you don’t have any sin, are you sanctified? And/or, can a sanctified person sin?
Thanks

We all have sin, and we all need sanctification. Yes a sanctified person can sin, as he is still in the flesh and has the two natures. Ralph

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Galations 3:22 says " but the scripture has concluded all under sin". Can a child below the age of reason sin, yes, however as far as I can see from scripture, they will not be held accountable for their sin until they reach the age of reason, when they can understand what they are doing.

Where in the Bible does it say that children under the age of reason are not held accountable for their sin? Besides if all have sinned, and a baby is born a sinner, exactly what sin has it committed? Original sin? Okay, but apart from Tradition that cannot be proven Sola Scriptura.

 

[Randy_Carson]

My friend the bible say ALL have sinned. If you read my quote closely you will see that God did take some people out from earth without dying, that is His choice. The rapture I will explain at a later date. Ralph

Yes, it does, Ralphy. However, it is evident that not everyone sins, and I have given examples of whole categories of people who are not even CAPABLE of sinning.

Therefore, you need to move beyond the simplistic, literalist meaning required by your sect and learn what the Bible ACTUALLY says.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Where in the Bible does it say that children under the age of reason are not held accountable for their sin? Besides if all have sinned, and a baby is born a sinner, exactly what sin has it committed? Original sin? Okay, but apart from Tradition that cannot be proven Sola Scriptura.

Original sin is not committed (except by Adam and Eve). However, because of Original Sin, we have inherited their sinful nature and we are separated from God.

However, this does not mean that ALL have committed personal sins much to Ralphy’s discomfort.

 

[ralphy]

Where in the Bible does it say that children under the age of reason are not held accountable for their sin? Besides if all have sinned, and a baby is born a sinner, exactly what sin has it committed? Original sin? Okay, but apart from Tradition that cannot be proven Sola Scriptura.

We have an inherited sin from Adam, this makes us all sinners. Ralph

 

[ralphy]

The original question was from the poster I responded to and was in their post. I will leave it to them to post if a fourth time if they so choose.

My point on the other hand was a response to your claim that your church has no heirarchy other than Jesus at its head.

I asked specifically if the pastor did not have any authority that other members didn’t have, and if not, then would you be allowed to go up and preach on any Sunday you choose to?

I then pointed out that Biblical Church had a clearly defined heirarchy. The apostles were definitely the leaders of the Early Church in Jerusalem and they also appointed deacons who had special authority in the community. Paul and the apostles also generally appointed overseers and elders (literally episcopi and presbyers) over the communities they founded. So therefore, not having a heirarchy is actually non biblical.

–
Bill

By the way, Peter calls himself an elder, you call him pope. I am sure Peter would not undersatnd that position at that time, nor would he accept it, being a common fisherman. Ralph

 

[Randy_Carson]

We have an inherited sin from Adam, this makes us all sinners. Ralph

We have a sinful nature. This does not mean, however, that ALL commit personal sins because some do not have the capacity to sin.

Therefore, not ALL are sinners.

There’s really no escape from that conclusion, Ralphy, and the implications for your theology are significant.

 

[Thing]

We all have sin, and we all need sanctification. Yes a sanctified person can sin, as he is still in the flesh and has the two natures. Ralph

But what does santification mean to you? What is it?

 

[Randy_Carson]

By the way, Peter calls himself an elder, you call him pope. I am sure Peter would not undersatnd that position at that time, nor would he accept it, being a common fisherman. Ralph

The term, Pope, like the term, Trinity, was unknown to the Apostles.

The office of leader of the Church was one that Peter clearly understood having received it from Christ.

Sure, Peter was an elder. All of the Apostles and their successors, the Bishops, would have had this title in the earliest days of the Church.

 

[ralphy]

We have a sinful nature. This does not mean, however, that ALL commit personal sins because some do not have the capacity to sin.

Therefore, not ALL are sinners.

There’s really no escape from that conclusion, Ralphy, and the implications for your theology are significant.

My friend, if you do not want to believe scripture when it says in Romans 3:23 “for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Then I do not have anymore to say to you, as we are not even on the same wavelength. You stick with your RCC and its tradition and beliefs, and I will continue to follow what the good Lord has left for me to follow, His word, the Bible. God bless you. Ralph

 

[Randy_Carson]

My friend, if you do not want to believe scripture when it says in Romans 3:23 “for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Then I do not have anymore to say to you, as we are not even on the same wavelength. You stick with your RCC and its tradition and beliefs, and I will continue to follow what the good Lord has left for me to follow, His word, the Bible. God bless you. Ralph

Heh…right.

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “This is (not represents) my body.”

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “Upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church.”

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men (plural)” in reference to forgiveness of sins.

I could go on, of course, but the point is made. :tiphat:

 

[Marsha_Adams]

We have an inherited sin from Adam, this makes us all sinners. Ralph

And it says that where in the Bible? Come on, Ralphy, you claim you go by the Bible Alone, where does it say this?

 

[ralphy]

Heh…right.

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “This is (not represents) my body.”

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “Upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church.”

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

YOU do not want to believe scripture when it says, “When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men (plural)” in reference to forgiveness of sins.

I could go on, of course, but the point is made. :tiphat:

I believe scripture alone. Peter may be the head of your church, but my church is based on Eph 2:20-22, Jesus Christ is the head of my church. Ralph

 

[paul_c]

My friend, if you do not want to believe scripture when it says in Romans 3:23 “for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Then I do not have anymore to say to you, as we are not even on the same wavelength. You stick with your RCC and its tradition and beliefs, and I will continue to follow what the good Lord has left for me to follow, His word, the Bible. God bless you. Ralph

Ralph, you are indeed very selective in your reading of scripture, discarding that which doesn’t fit your view of theology. This is impeding you from finding the truth about salvation. Instead, you only find what you want to find.

For instance, have you read 1John 3

1 See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
3 Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure.
4 Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 **No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him.
7 Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.
10 In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother. **11 For this is the message you have heard from the beginning: we should love one another,
12 unlike Cain who belonged to the evil one and slaughtered his brother. Why did he slaughter him? Because his own works were evil, and those of his brother righteous.
13 Do not be amazed, (then,) brothers, if the world hates you.
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. Whoever does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.
16 The way we came to know love was that he laid down his life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him?
18 Children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth.
19 (Now) this is how we shall know that we belong to the truth and reassure our hearts before him
20 in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything.
21 Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God
22 and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
23 And his commandment is this: **we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. **24 Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.

You see, St. John Makes the point that if you truly remain in Christ, you will love others and you will not sin. And that if you don’t love others and if you sin, you don’t have God within us. Notice also like 23. We need to have Faith. but we also must love one another by keeping his commandments. This directly refutes Sola fide.

Ralphy, please accept the truth from scripture, and what I mean is the real truth, not that which you wish to be the truth.