Where was Peter buried?

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I do not know anything about Calvin or Luther except what I heard people say. I do not see their names in the Bible, so I am not too concerned about them, I follow what God says in His word. Ralph
No, Ralphy.

You follow your own interpretation of what you think God’s word means.

Unfortunately, you do not have the resources to understand the scriptures properly, and you have wandered into all sorts of errors.

Additionally, since you have some obvious prejudices against Catholics (which are NOT found in the Bible) I have to conclude that you have been absorbing teaching about Catholics from someone else. From this, I can deduce that you have been absorbing their teaching about the Bible as well.

Consequently, while you claim to be following “what God says in His word”, you are actually following someone else’s’ interpretation about His Word.

Unfortunately, this someone has been leading you astray.
 
I do not know anything about Calvin or Luther except what I heard people say. I do not see their names in the Bible, so I am not too concerned about them, I follow what God says in His word. Ralph
LOL… since you parrot their positions, you might want to learn a little about them.

The simple fact of the matter is that you claim you only go by what is in the Bible, but your interpretations of the Bible are far too consistent with Protestant positions for you to really claim they are your interpretations. If you are really honest with yourself, I think you will admit that your interpretations are the ones you learned from your pastor. Good Catholics will admit the same thing… but we actually believe that the Church has authority to interpret scripture.

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Bill
 
No, Ralphy.

You follow your own interpretation of what you think God’s word means.

Unfortunately, you do not have the resources to understand the scriptures properly, and you have wandered into all sorts of errors.

Additionally, since you have some obvious prejudices against Catholics (which are NOT found in the Bible) I have to conclude that you have been absorbing teaching about Catholics from someone else. From this, I can deduce that you have been absorbing their teaching about the Bible as well.

Consequently, while you claim to be following “what God says in His word”, you are actually following someone else’s’ interpretation about His Word.

Unfortunately, this someone has been leading you astray.
I have been absorbing teaching about catholics from having been a RC for 43 years, I know both the teaching side and the practical side. Ralph
 
Ralph, they are the same positions as those described by Paul in his epistles to Titus and Timothy. Not the same positions as the old testament. You are so sure of yourself, yet Paul was talking specifically about this attitude you have when warning Timothy in 2Timothy 4:
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power:
2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.
3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers
4 and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

Heed the warning… We Catholics are not gullible. We have arrived at the truth through reason. And part of that reasoning is accepting that the Church was given the truth to teach us for our benefit. And it is also recognizing our own limitations in comparison with the Church fathers, who were taught be Jesus himself and who passed on what they were taught through the Popes and bishops for 2000 years. Look at what you wrote. above. You think that you can interpret what was written by the Apostles better than the people they taught. That is both arrogant and foolish. Listen to the church. Why do you think they would lie? What benefit is in it for them to mislead you?
I see tangible benefits in the RCC. Take a look at the Vatican, how much wealth do you see there in their jewels, paintings, artifacts, garments, upkeep, and a vast number of people to support, not including the staff to support them. I cannot imagine the cost of keeping that place going, and for what. Do you see anything in the Bible that shows such a buildup of people and wealth, on the contrary, the Bible in no way encourages such a way of living. I have been to Rome and have seen some of these things. Not much sign of poverty there, and all paid for by people who have very little, but feel an “obligation” to support the hierarchy, thinking that this will help them get to heaven. This is a sad situation. Ralph
 
Ralph, they are the same positions as those described by Paul in his epistles to Titus and Timothy. Not the same positions as the old testament. You are so sure of yourself, yet Paul was talking specifically about this attitude you have when warning Timothy in 2Timothy 4:
1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power:
2 proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching.
3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers
4 and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

Heed the warning… We Catholics are not gullible. We have arrived at the truth through reason. And part of that reasoning is accepting that the Church was given the truth to teach us for our benefit. And it is also recognizing our own limitations in comparison with the Church fathers, who were taught be Jesus himself and who passed on what they were taught through the Popes and bishops for 2000 years. Look at what you wrote. above. You think that you can interpret what was written by the Apostles better than the people they taught. That is both arrogant and foolish. Listen to the church. Why do you think they would lie? What benefit is in it for them to mislead you?
Very well put… Hope a young headstrong gentleman from the Protestant contigent is ‘open’ to hear what is being said through you. Jesus be Praised for the gift of His Church and the Popes He has provided to steer the Barque of Peter.

God bless.
 
I have been absorbing teaching about catholics from having been a RC for 43 years, I know both the teaching side and the practical side. Ralph
If you had been a Catholic for 43 years, then either your religious teachers did you a great disservice in instructing you about the faith, or you cut way too many of your religion classes. You have spent dozens of posts here attacking Catholicism for positions we don’t actually hold. Since I try to be charitable, I will assume you actually believe what you write about the Church, though your unwillingness to accept correction about your basic mistakes makes me wonder.

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Bill
 
A lot of ground’s been covered here, but the bottom line is that Peter is under the Basilica San Pietro in Rome. The most obvious problem with the Jerusalem story is the claim that Peter was found in a Christian cemetery. In the first century, with Christianity an outlaw religion, there simply were no Christian cemetaries. That’s why early Christians were buried in the catacombs or common cemeteries. In these cemeteries of the 1st century we find various pagan religions, Christians, Jews, etc. There were no exclusively Christian cemeteries at that time anywhere in the Roman Empire of which Jerusalem was a part.

St Peter’s is the 2nd basilica on the Vatican Hill, the first having been built by Constantine in the 4th century. In order to construct it the Emperor had to level the cemetery and haul thousands of tons of dirt, removing it from the higher portion of the hill and filling in the lower portion. This was a monumental undertaking, not to mention a sacriledge for the dead buried there. Why would Constantine go through this kind of trouble, risking political damage and making his task so onerous? Because Tradition told him Peter was buried on the Vatican Hill. Pilgrims visited the site for over 3 centuries to see the tomb of the Apostle. It was well known in the Christian community where Peter was buried. It was also well known that he was martyred in Nero’s circus nearby, crucified upside down around 64-67 AD.

Constantine encased the tomb in a marble vault and built his basilica so the altar was placed directly above it. That basilica lasted centuries until it had to be rebuilt and replaced by the current basilica. When the new St Peter’s was built, the architects went to great care to place the present alter with it’s huge brass baldacino directly over the marble vault for the same reasons as Constantine: that Peter would lie beneath the altar.

Around the same time as the “discovery” of Peter in Jerusalem, the Vatican undertook excavations under the basilica to verify Peter’s presence. First they uncovered Constantine’s marble vault, carefull not to upset the footings of the basilica. Inside the vault they found a simple tomb, marked by a small altar like structure, very similar to the one described in the ancient histories. Next to the tomb was a large brick wall, soon to be known as the grafitti wall for all the ancient writing that was on it.

They found no bones in the tomb, but did find the bones of a man inside the wall! Among the inscriptions on the wall was one that read, “Here is Peter.” The bones had been hidden by ancient Christians concerned for their survival during the years of persecution.
The bones were assembled and tested. They were from a first century man of stocky build who was roughly in his 60s. They matched Peter. The Vatican doesn’t say with certainty that they are the saints remains. They refer to them as the bones that could be Peter. Still, when you see the ancient documentation, explore tradition and add up the unnecessary difficulties of placing the basilica where it was placed, you have to conclude that St Peter is most likely where the Church has always claimed.

I’ve seen the excavation and the tomb as well as the remains of the necropolis that once stood on the surface of the Vatican Hill. For my money, that’s where St Peter is buried.

Ancient historians describe Peter’s tomb and even made rough scetches of it for posterity.
Thank you.

God bless.
 
A lot of ground’s been covered here, but the bottom line is that Peter is under the Basilica San Pietro in Rome. The most obvious problem with the Jerusalem story is the claim that Peter was found in a Christian cemetery. In the first century, with Christianity an outlaw religion, there simply were no Christian cemetaries. That’s why early Christians were buried in the catacombs or common cemeteries. In these cemeteries of the 1st century we find various pagan religions, Christians, Jews, etc. There were no exclusively Christian cemeteries at that time anywhere in the Roman Empire of which Jerusalem was a part.

St Peter’s is the 2nd basilica on the Vatican Hill, the first having been built by Constantine in the 4th century. In order to construct it the Emperor had to level the cemetery and haul thousands of tons of dirt, removing it from the higher portion of the hill and filling in the lower portion. This was a monumental undertaking, not to mention a sacriledge for the dead buried there. Why would Constantine go through this kind of trouble, risking political damage and making his task so onerous? Because Tradition told him Peter was buried on the Vatican Hill. Pilgrims visited the site for over 3 centuries to see the tomb of the Apostle. It was well known in the Christian community where Peter was buried. It was also well known that he was martyred in Nero’s circus nearby, crucified upside down around 64-67 AD.

Constantine encased the tomb in a marble vault and built his basilica so the altar was placed directly above it. That basilica lasted centuries until it had to be rebuilt and replaced by the current basilica. When the new St Peter’s was built, the architects went to great care to place the present alter with it’s huge brass baldacino directly over the marble vault for the same reasons as Constantine: that Peter would lie beneath the altar.

Around the same time as the “discovery” of Peter in Jerusalem, the Vatican undertook excavations under the basilica to verify Peter’s presence. First they uncovered Constantine’s marble vault, carefull not to upset the footings of the basilica. Inside the vault they found a simple tomb, marked by a small altar like structure, very similar to the one described in the ancient histories. Next to the tomb was a large brick wall, soon to be known as the grafitti wall for all the ancient writing that was on it.

They found no bones in the tomb, but did find the bones of a man inside the wall! Among the inscriptions on the wall was one that read, “Here is Peter.” The bones had been hidden by ancient Christians concerned for their survival during the years of persecution.
The bones were assembled and tested. They were from a first century man of stocky build who was roughly in his 60s. They matched Peter. The Vatican doesn’t say with certainty that they are the saints remains. They refer to them as the bones that could be Peter. Still, when you see the ancient documentation, explore tradition and add up the unnecessary difficulties of placing the basilica where it was placed, you have to conclude that St Peter is most likely where the Church has always claimed.

I’ve seen the excavation and the tomb as well as the remains of the necropolis that once stood on the surface of the Vatican Hill. For my money, that’s where St Peter is buried.

Ancient historians describe Peter’s tomb and even made rough scetches of it for posterity.
Very well stated. Praise the Master through Jesus Christ, the High Priest and Guardian of our souls.
 
Ralphy,

You say you seen the Vatican and were griping about the cost of maintenance. What about all these megachurches? Where do they get their money? All these fellowship churches with their daycare and classrooms, conference halls and auditoriums - where do they get their money?

The Vatican is almost self-supporting through revenue from the Vatican Museums, the Vatican Gardens, the various excations, the Michaelanglo dome, etc that charge tourists an entry or tour fee. There are gift shops that sell religious articles as well. This is all income used to maintain this historic building and it’s grounds.

You see the Vatican as a financial treasure trove when in facy, the things there are priceless and irreplacable to Western Civilization. The Vatican has been he caretaker for these treasures for centuries and we wouldn’t have most of them if not for their efforts. You can’t put a price on everything, especially these treasures that delight millions of people every year.

And remember, these buildings are many centuries old and represent the architecture of the day. They are historical treasures in and of themselves, pieces of antiquity, remnants of the Renaissance and it’s fabulous artisans like Michaelangleo, Bernini, Barromini, Raphael and other masters. They must be maintained or it’s our loss.

I’ll tell you what, when the TV preacher shysters stop collecting money and the megachurches downsize, I’ll worry about the Catholic Church’s finances. What they spend is a drop in the pond for what they give.
 
Stephraim and McSweeney,

Thank you for the kind words. I love to share the rich history of the Church - what I know of it, anyway.

I’ve been to Rome numerous times because I simply love the Eternal City. Besides it’s place of honor as the home of Catholicism, it has so much else to offer as well. And it’s so, so beautiful.

I almost gasped when I saw the title of this post. What do you mean, where? I’ve seen Peter’s tomb. I’ve seen the Mammartine prison where he and St Paul were held by the Romans. Tradition tells us everything about the Apostle (but it doesn’t hurt to take the tour!) I can’t believe that there are those who say Peter was never even in Rome. Just another swipe at the Church, I guess.

Anywaym the guides were great, giving us the stories of Peter’s martyrdom, his burial, information on ancient Rome’s geography, on Constantine and his mammoth efforts to ensure the great basilica would enshrine Peter’s tomb, the Varican’s secret excavation efforts and thenm the final verification of the tomb’s existence, just as Tradition has told us!

I’ve been very lucky the last few years to be able to see many sacred places, shrines, churches, memorials and monuments to the Apostles, Saints, fathers of the Church, etc. It’s been a real boost to my feeling of closeness to the Holy Mother Church and a priviledge to see these ancient pieces of Church life and history. And there’s no doubt where Peter is. He is the Rock on which the Church is built, both literally and figuratively.

Peace
 
Ralphy,

You say you seen the Vatican and were griping about the cost of maintenance. What about all these megachurches? Where do they get their money? All these fellowship churches with their daycare and classrooms, conference halls and auditoriums - where do they get their money?

The Vatican is almost self-supporting through revenue from the Vatican Museums, the Vatican Gardens, the various excations, the Michaelanglo dome, etc that charge tourists an entry or tour fee. There are gift shops that sell religious articles as well. This is all income used to maintain this historic building and it’s grounds.

You see the Vatican as a financial treasure trove when in facy, the things there are priceless and irreplacable to Western Civilization. The Vatican has been he caretaker for these treasures for centuries and we wouldn’t have most of them if not for their efforts. You can’t put a price on everything, especially these treasures that delight millions of people every year.

And remember, these buildings are many centuries old and represent the architecture of the day. They are historical treasures in and of themselves, pieces of antiquity, remnants of the Renaissance and it’s fabulous artisans like Michaelangleo, Bernini, Barromini, Raphael and other masters. They must be maintained or it’s our loss.

I’ll tell you what, when the TV preacher shysters stop collecting money and the megachurches downsize, I’ll worry about the Catholic Church’s finances. What they spend is a drop in the pond for what they give.
You mentioned nothing about the hierarchy, why is there so many, and what if any is their purpose. God said that we should not build up treasures on earth, they are not worth a thing. Ralph
 
God said that we should not build up treasures on earth, they are not worth a thing. Ralph
2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines by # of Persons in Family
1 $10,400
2 14,000
3 17,600
4 21,200
5 24,800
7 32,000
For each additional person, add 3,600

Ralph, then if there is only one person in your family and you bring in more than $10,400 per year, you are building up treasure on earth and are doing wrong? SO anybody who has 4 people in the household and earns $100,000 is sinning? What about corporations that fall into the Fortune 500 category, are you finding fault with them?

What about the Baptists and the Lutherans? Do you know what their net worth is? Do you have a problem with the fact that they have assets? No probably not, because it really seems like you don’t have problems with anybody or anything except the Church.
 
2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines by # of Persons in Family
1 $10,400
2 14,000
3 17,600
4 21,200
5 24,800
7 32,000
For each additional person, add 3,600

Ralph, then if there is only one person in your family and you bring in more than $10,400 per year, you are building up treasure on earth and are doing wrong? SO anybody who has 4 people in the household and earns $100,000 is sinning? What about corporations that fall into the Fortune 500 category, are you finding fault with them?

What about the Baptists and the Lutherans? Do you know what their net worth is? Do you have a problem with the fact that they have assets? No probably not, because it really seems like you don’t have problems with anybody or anything except the Church.
Nice figure arrangement Marsha, but I am talking about the RCC, not about the world in general. With your statement you are trying to protect the RCC. You will have to agree that the RCC, or at least the Vatican does have a lot of treasure, weither it is in currency or some other asset. I was also questioning the large number of people attached to the Vatican, and what is their purpose. I will agree that the RCC in certain areas do not have too much money , as they are closing down, I believe this is from lack of attendance, which means a lack of financial income. Ralph
 
Nice figure arrangement Marsha, but I am talking about the RCC, not about the world in general. With your statement you are trying to protect the RCC. You will have to agree that the RCC, or at least the Vatican does have a lot of treasure, weither it is in currency or some other asset. I was also questioning the large number of people attached to the Vatican, and what is their purpose. I will agree that the RCC in certain areas do not have too much money , as they are closing down, I believe this is from lack of attendance, which means a lack of financial income. Ralph
Ralph, there are over 1Billion people in the Catholic church world wide. There are over half a million priests. there are tens of thousands of churches, schools, hospitals, probably millions of people in direct care of the church’s charities. An organization of this size, the biggest in the world, understandable needs a lot of structure. and much of the artwork they have was donated by the artist for the love of God.

Let’s face it. This whole argument is a red herring. The priests, monks and nuns that make up the church’s hierarchy are under personal vows of chastity, poverty and obedience . They give up the things of this world in ways that most people would never consider for the Love of God and the love of the people they serve.
 
Obviously, Ralph belongs to a little fellowship church taht unaffiliated and hasn’t any grasp fo what it takes to keep a worldwide operation like the Catholic Church functioning. It requires a lot of people, property and organization to do the great work they do in this world.

Less than 2000 people live and work in Vatican City. They provide the tours, the cleaning, the maintenance, restore art, catalog the museum pieces, set up for masses and audiences for tens of thousands of people each day, provide security, run a post office, a printing shop, a television and radio station and countless other functions. The Vatican is actually a bargain considering all it does on a daily basis.

I think it’s really time you got over your selective moralizing and your irrational hatred for Christ’s Church. I geuss when your church doesn’t have the richness, the history, the incredible popularity of the Catholic Church, you feel obligated to attack it out of jealousy. God’s Word has nothing to do with it. Somewhere, I think you sense that this is indeed the Church founded by Christ and the Apostles.
 
Ralph,
there’s no reason for you to be jealous of the Catholic Church. We will welcome you back when you see the truth for yourself. What are you waiting for?
 
If you had been a Catholic for 43 years, then either your religious teachers did you a great disservice in instructing you about the faith, or you cut way too many of your religion classes. You have spent dozens of posts here attacking Catholicism for positions we don’t actually hold. Since I try to be charitable, I will assume you actually believe what you write about the Church, though your unwillingness to accept correction about your basic mistakes makes me wonder.

–
Bill
You know, Bill, I have to commend you very highly on your charity. Especially since my gut response to the same post this one replies to, was much less charitable than yours.
Bless you. Over here in the Methodist Amen Corner, I find myself 😊:blush:by my own anger at Ralphy.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, be merciful unto me, a sinner.
 
You mentioned nothing about the hierarchy, why is there so many, and what if any is their purpose. God said that we should not build up treasures on earth, they are not worth a thing. Ralph
A lot of protestant religions are funded by tithes, so people pay 10% of their income.

The CC does not do that and relys on the generosity of the laity.
 
You know, Bill, I have to commend you very highly on your charity. Especially since my gut response to the same post this one replies to, was much less charitable than yours.
Bless you. Over here in the Methodist Amen Corner, I find myself 😊:blush:by my own anger at Ralphy.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, be merciful unto me, a sinner.
Zooey,
Thanks for your kind words but remember charity is not your gut response, it is what you actually do that counts. Many initial, gut response was quite a bit less charitable as well.

–
Bill
 
You mentioned nothing about the hierarchy, why is there so many, and what if any is their purpose. God said that we should not build up treasures on earth, they are not worth a thing. Ralph
There is nothing to address about the hierarchy since it ordained by the Gospels adn the Church Fathers. It an organizational mechanism that allows the Church to watch over it’s worldwide ministry, just as the Apostles looked over those to whom they handed the Tradition of the early Church. It ensures that the Truth remains consistent, unvarnished and faithful to what God intended us to reveal.

You’d be surprised to know that the Church isn’t wealthy by any means. They do have a vast collection of valuable artifacts, but these belong to all of us as essential bits of our history. Western Civilization is better for the Church having preserved the works of the ancients and the masters all these years. They can’t be expected to hold an auction and have us lose these treasures to private collectors

Regardless, the work the Church does in the world is well funded and the Cathlic Church doesn’t demand tithing. People give what they can when they can. Catholic Charities is the largest single charitable group on the planet, spending far more than any other group.

So spend a little less time preoccupied with what the Church has collected over the last 1500 years and you’ll might see how much they do for their neighbors as Christ commanded.
 
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