As I said before, I don’t object to Catholic teaching. If Catholics want to pray for or with saints and angels they should pray to saints and angels. My mom does that and everyone I know who does that is a good person. I prefer to pray to God. The Catholic Church teaches I can pray to God. It’s very Catholic.
My question is how do you know that the Apostles never prayed to the Jewish saints such as Moses etc.? If you have any sources would you share them with us so we can see where that is?
That evidence does not exist for or against.
HI Dalphon: I am not going anywhere with my question. It was just a question. I know that there is not evidence either way, and knew that. One just no know if any of the Apostles prayed to any of the saints of the OT like Moses etc. We also do not know they even taught one to pray to than to God. That being said, they did pray for the dead and those who had gone before them in Christ. Those of the OT were not baptized but that does not mean that they were not saved, so why not pray for their intercession? besides, since we do not know if the Apostles prayed to any of the saints or did not pray, it seems to me that just because it was not written in what became the NT, does not it was not so.
Not true.
I do not know what you mean by practicing but when I say practicing it means they are living their faith. A Catholic who lives with someone before marriage is not practicing. A Catholic who does not accept infallibility is not practicing nor is it practicing not to go to confession. Gong to mass is a minimum, it takes more to be a “practicing” Catholic.
Egg-zactly.
“The patriarchs, prophets, and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions” (CCC 61).
And as I’ve said, that’s excellent that you don’t object to Catholic teaching.As I said before, I don’t object to Catholic teaching. If Catholics want to pray for or with saints and angels they should pray to saints and angels. My mom does that and everyone I know who does that is a good person. I prefer to pray to God. The Catholic Church teaches I can pray to God. It’s very Catholic.
So when the angels came, you think it would be better if the people put their finger in their ears, turned their back, and say aloud “I can’t talk to an angel, I can;t talk to an angel,…etc” till the angel left?
On the contrary, I think it is the perfect norm. One is not seeking to focus on the angel, one is just open to the reality of an angel. Asking angels for help is not contrary to anything in Scripture. If one is not open to the communion of saints, how is one mentally and spiritually disposed to receive an angel?
Indeed yes. And they also taught that even death does not separate us from one another, or from His love.
The fact that their prayers are not included in the writings of the NT is not proof that this did not happen. That is an argument from silence, with no validity. On the contrary, after haivng been present with Jesus when He had his little chat with Moses and Elijah, they were completely convinced that the saints are alive and well, and able to visit and converse with us about events that are occurring.
I think you are right on with this, Dalphon. They were just considered heretics.
It is impossible to know the details of this, but Catholics who are practicing sacrilege or ar in mortal sin, disobeying the canons of the Church and the authority appointed by God to shepherd them are not really a very strong talking point. Truth is not defined by those who embrace error.
Yes, there are many “protestants” who do not realize that they are. They think (incorrectly) that they can deny the Teachings of the faith, ,and yet be in good standing with the Church. They have deceived themselves, or ar lying to themselves, to the Church, and to God.
Not if their differences had not yet been defined. A Catholic before Trent could subscribe to things Trent rejected, if they had not previously been rejected by the Church, and still be a good Catholic. They might say “Oops” on learning what Trent said, and remain Catholic, or “nuts”, and then become a heretic at that point, to simplify matters.
Yes we are a Church full of sinners; as the old adage goes find a Church with no sinners and I could not belong. There are many people sitting Church in denominations where they either don’t know all the teachings, misunderstand them, or disagree with them. Part of the world we dwell in.
Hey, I don’t take this position, and neither does anyone else. I think Julius Caesar lived, and leggings are overdone, way overdone, but neither of these things are in the Bible. No one refuses to wear pants because the word “pants” is not in the Bible, or cuts out their uvula because that word is not on the Bible. Likewise with elevators, trains, airplanes, computers, etc. It would be interesting to see the rationale of someone who posts on CAF who denies the reality of computers because they are not Scriptural!
Maybe so. More likely they both prayed to St. Stephen, the first martyr.
Was there something that made you think they were not? We believe that all who are saved are contained in the communion of saints. Although it is more clear now to these OT saints what Christ established, we tend to focus on those who have gone before us in faith as baptized Christians. Obviously, it was important for Jesus to have dialogue with Moses and Elijah while he was still in the flesh.
Well…they are practicing disobedience and rebellion…
Amen!
Yes, you do. It’s right there in our Sacred Tradition.
But Jesus did.
Indeed. It is not the norm. No one is obligated to pray to the saints as a Catholic.
I’m quite sure that this is incorrect. The bolded part, I mean. See below.
I presume, then, that you object to this:
Dalphon’s doctrine seems to meet all your criteria–it’s strained. It’s forced. It’s ostensibly supported by Scripture in defense of a doctrine otherwise not found in Scripture.
Not sure what you’re saying here, Tomi.