Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[Randy_Carson]

My apologies, I didn’t realize that you were only interested knowing what a person needed to know in the thirty seconds before he or she died. I guess I missed that post.

I think the problem is that most people have more than 30 seconds. Consequently, more is required.

Now, Dalphon may be an advocate of OSAS, but I think that many people who walked down the aisle at a Billy Graham crusade but never darkened the door of a local church or cracked the pages of scripture after the first month of being a “Christian” are going to be in for a big surprise when they hear the Lord say, “I never knew you.”

(Of course, most OSAS folks would say that they were never really saved to begin with.)

 

[Dalphon]

Well, then, please refresh my memory as to what you said.

The following is the whole dialogue.

What Kliska is saying is this, and I think you know it’s. If all you had was the following paragraph to say and those who were listening believed what you said, they would have salvation.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Then baptize them.

Sorry, Dalphon. But no one can “have salvation” until he is dead.

Salvation = being present with the Eternal Godhead, in the beatific vision, for eternity.

That occurs, of course, after we die.

Well if the scenario occurred on a descending airplane or at the site of an erupting volcano or maybe to be more realistic a person who is overdosing on heroin, then that person or group of people would know very soon.

This applies to every human person, Dalphon. When we die, we “know very soon” whether we are saved or not.

So it’s an inutile point you’re making.

My point is that no one can “have salvation” this side of heaven.

Are we agreed on that?

You’re avoiding the issue. Do we need to tell them about Mary also in order to be saved. The apostles didn’t. They were not denying Mary as the theotokos by not including her in their preaching.

If you want to discuss eternal security we can do that next.

 

[Dalphon]

Such as…??

I’m not going to get into that here. It’s not related to the discussion.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Tradition - the handing down orally of beliefs, customs, etc. from generation to generation.
So if you’re Catholic you hand down Catholic tradition. If you’re not Catholic you don’t hand down Catholic tradition. **You don’t need Catholic tradition to have salvation. That is my point.
**

It’s ALL Catholic Tradition.

And Tradition is divided into Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

That’s OUR point.

From the Catechism
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#83

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44

 

[Randy_Carson]

That was the point I was trying to make. Then why pick on Protestants who don’t have perfect understanding?

Oh, gee, I dunno…maybe it has something to do with trying to get you to see the error of your theological novelties and to come back to the one true Church that Jesus promised to build upon Peter, the rock.

For starters.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m not going to get into that here. It’s not related to the discussion.

Then why did you make the claim? If it’s not related to the discussion.

 

[Dalphon]

So the question becomes, will you accept authentic Tradition?
Or do you believe Christ is still dead, and tradition is of your own making?
Which is it?

Right now I’m attending a Protestant church so I’m participating in Protestant tradition. I don’t attend all Protestant churches, only one, so please don’t open a can of worms with me about all the false teachings of Protestantism.

 

[Dalphon]

Then why did you make the claim? If it’s not related to the discussion.

I was asked this question.

And besides, the Bible also says to test the spirits…so how have you and your church tested the spirits?

How have you and your church tested the spirits? Some very unholy things go on at Rome.

 

[Denise1957]

Tradition - the handing down orally of beliefs, customs, etc. from generation to generation.
So if you’re Catholic you hand down Catholic tradition. If you’re not Catholic you don’t hand down Catholic tradition. **You don’t need Catholic tradition to have salvation. That is my point.
**

Thanks for explaning your meaning. It’s fine that you believe that Catholic tradition is not needed for salvation, since you are a Protestant, and you are allowed to express your views in questioning or disagreeing with Catholicism (within the required guidelines) here in the non-Catholic religions section. Of course we Catholics will do our best to explain Church teaching, and I hope that the lively debate will keep going and remain, for the most part, charitable.

 

[Porknpie]

I don’t think you get what I’m saying. I know my church doesn’t teach everything the apostles taught.

This is on the surface very confusing. Why wouldn’t your Church teach what the apostles taught as they were “Sent” to proclaim the Gospel by Christ?

They teach bible only and Jesus only

Dalphon, is Sunday your day of worship?

 

[clem456]

Right now I’m attending a Protestant church so I’m participating in Protestant tradition. I don’t attend all Protestant churches, only one, so please don’t open a can of worms with me about all the false teachings of Protestantism.

Might be a good spot to stop and take a big breath.
We are on somewhat the same page. You and I both admit that we are part of a tradition. Your tradition, as you say above, contains all that has come before you. It is not just “be baptized etc…” (not saying that’s not a big one), it’s much more than just the minimum. You evidently believe Christ is alive and well in your tradition.

 

[pablope]

Do you know if your church teaches what is true or not?

Yes, we do because of the promise of Christ to build His church upon the rock of Peter and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But then, I will shoot back the question at you: How do you know your church is teaching the truth?

How do you know which is mere opinion and which is truth?

The devil would not be leading people to repentance from sin, faith in Christ, worship and the teaching of the word.

 

[Porknpie]

It doesn’t say only God. It says “to God.”
"Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

Dalphon, the above scripture is very Catholic. You are correct, it does not say “only” to God. If it did or if you are thinking it does, the Word of God contradicts itself because St. Paul says that we should pray for one another.

As you know, God can not contradict himself. He is Truth.

St. Paul is explicitly clear that we are to pray for one another.

So that leaves the first statement that we should “…present requests to God”. The understanding here is that we can (and should) present our requests to God through others, intercessors. So when we do pray for another other, we are being faithful to the verse “…requests to God.” No contradiction.

Personally, I’ll take it both ways: my prayers to God and prayers from others to God on my behalf.

It’s not either - or, but both.

 

[Dalphon]

This is on the surface very confusing. Why wouldn’t your Church teach what the apostles taught as they were “Sent” to proclaim the Gospel by Christ?

They teach the bible. Is that everything?

Dalphon, is Sunday your day of worship?

Yes

 

[Dalphon]

Yes, we do because of the promise of Christ to build His church upon the rock of Peter and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

My pastor quotes that scripture also as pertaining to his church. 7th Day Adventists also quote that for themselves. I would think hundreds or maybe thousands of churches who study the bible apply that to their own church.

But then, I will shoot back the question at you: How do you know your church is teaching the truth?
You believe your church teaches the truth because it agrees with your way of thinking. Everyone determines that for himself. Water seeks it own level. The Jews believe in their religion, the Muslims theirs, if want to join a cult and shave your head you can join the Hare Krishnas. If you want to sell flowers on the highway join the Moonies.

How do you know which is mere opinion and which is truth?

The same way you know. By studying, praying and living.

As the Bible says, the angel can mask as an angel of light, and plant 99 truths to one falsehood.

The Catholic church is not immune to that either. It’s not something you do once and then it’s finished. It takes constant vigilance.

So again, how can you tell you are being led the real Holy Spirit? The Bible tells you to test the spirits…so how have you tested the spirits?

I John 4:1
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;…
2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
3 John 1:11
Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God.

More evasion from you. This has been answered previously…by the common teaching, common life, common worship and liturgies of the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

So I will shoot back the question you have evaded: How do you know what is being taught to you is actually from the Apostles and not mere opinion?

I’ve already gone over this many times. I’m being taught the teachings of the apostles from the new testament only.

So back to you…has your church tested the spirits? How?

Yes they have.

LIke what?

So can you be sure also nothing unholy goes on in your protestant church/community?

Is your protestant church without sin?

I don’t know everyone intimately but of course no one is without sin.
You will know them by the fruit they bear. The leadership is bearing good fruit. If I find out they are involved in criminal activity I will no longer attend.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

That was the point I was trying to make. Then why pick on Protestants who don’t have perfect understanding?

A big part of it is, to paraphrase Ronald Regan, “It isn’t so much that protestants are ignorant. It’s just that they know so many things that aren’t so.”

 

[Dalphon]

My pastor quotes that scripture also as pertaining to his church. 7th Day Adventists also quote that for themselves. I would think hundreds or maybe thousands of churches who study the bible apply that to their own church.

You believe your church teaches the truth because it agrees with your way of thinking. Everyone determines that for himself. Water seeks it own level. The Jews believe in their religion, the Muslims theirs, if want to join a cult and shave your head you can join the Hare Krishnas. If you want to sell flowers on the highway join the Moonies.

How do you know which is mere opinion and which is truth?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

They teach the bible. Is that everything?

Not by a long shot.

Not according to the paradosis of the Apostles.

Not even according to the written part of that paradosis, also referred to as scripture:
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Ac 1:3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

etc. etc.

 

[JonNC]

Right now I’m attending a Protestant church so I’m participating in Protestant tradition. I don’t attend all Protestant churches, only one, so please don’t open a can of worms with me about all the false teachings of Protestantism.

What is “Protestant tradition”?

Jon

 

[Dalphon]

Not by a long shot.

Not according to the paradosis of the Apostles.

Not even according to the written part of that paradosis, also referred to as scripture:
Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Ac 1:3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

etc. etc.

I’ve been over that many times on this thread. I’m not going to do it again.