Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[Nanotwerp]

Ignatius but zero memory of content, but definitely a backslapper of heirarchy, some beautiful writing but almost to the point of puzzlement to motive. Reminds me of travelling pastors who really lift up with a flattering tongue the home pastors who invited them to speak, barely knowing them.

As I predicted, you totally ignore the point of my post, and try to change the subject. Why is It that I can give you evidence of Catholicism being supported by apostles, but you can’t with Protestants. Are you that narrow-minded and prideful as to follow a German Catholic priest of the 1500’s, instead of Jesus Christ and the apostles themselves. You seem to be lacking in knowledge of the history of Christianity; either that, or you choose to ignore it.

What I’ve noticed is that most firm, did-hard Protestants were usually born Protestants. All of the Protestant converts from Catholicism that I have studied about seem to have converted because of personal biases, which the Bible speaks out against. For example: birth control and other sinful things that are embraced by modern society, and made to be embraced my Protestantism.

The Protestant reformers were clouded and confused by local issues. For example, the Church never taught about selling and buying indulgences, yet Martin Luther spoke against it when one church practiced this sinful act. I respect what Martin Luther spoke out against, but he made one mistake; he judged the whole Church based on one sinful church. Should I judge the tree based off of one bad fruit?

You seem to be ignoring some of my posts, because you’re too afraid to learn something, but isn’t it in the Bible to ‘test all spirits’? There is not a doubt in my mind that you would be one of the Jews that would persecute and ridicule Jesus, because he taught the way; just because you wouldn’t test him first. Closed-mindedness is an ultimate act of too much self-pride.

It all goes down to one question, really: Do you trust the opinions of the apostles, and the people who knew apostles, or ‘reformers’ who practiced faiths that were nonexistent before the 1500’s? It is always up to you.

 

[benhur]

The Catholic and Orthodox churches** seem to** be preaching what the apostles did, as the apostles were **most likely **Catholic/Orthodox; and given how they have unbroken apostolic succession from the apostles. I can give you countless amounts of evidence in the favor of the Catholic Church’s consistent history and beliefs, but you’ll probably dismiss it because of prior biases and opinions. Do you have any evidence of there being any of your Protestant-specific beliefs during early Christianity?

Keep in mind that Ignatius of Antioch knew an apostle.

I appreciate your “seems to” and most likely’’. It most certainly can be and has been presented that way for centuries…You know the gospels talk of a man who was once blind but was made to see. He gives some of the most profound reasonings for his convictions… The proof is in the pudding… How about another story… There was a man named Job, and his old friends who should have had wisdom and righteousness did not . Only the young Elihu did, who also gave simple but profound reasoning for his “wisdom”.

 

[spina1953]

I am still lost to your question.

Hi benhur: Don’t worry about it its ok.

 

[benhur]

As I predicted, you totally ignore the point of my post,

Which post did I ignore ? You asked if I knew of His letter and i answered. You then said look at his catholic church rendering . I did and gave you my opinion on the matter. Met you head on. Agreed he used "catholic’’ but as an adjective. Understand you think it is link to early name of your church, and that that church is your church today, that they are the same. Understand, just disagree. If differing opinion is “ignoring”, well sorry, for am grateful of having to think about your historical proposition. I incidentally have not heard from you regarding my thoughts on the matter. Is catholic an ancient Greek word ? Could it have been used in an adjective with Ignatius ? Is it difficult to discern because all letters are capitalized in the Greek ?

Are you that narrow-minded and prideful as to follow a German Catholic priest of the 1500’s, instead of Jesus Christ

I am not Lutheran but even they say they follow Christ not Luther ( in fact that is stated just a few posts above , onceagain)

You seem to be lacking in knowledge of the history of Christianity; either that, or you choose to ignore it.

Most reformers were not ignorant, but were well educated by the Catholic system

 

[benhur]

Hi benhur: Don’t worry about it its ok.

Cool. As an old pastor used to say more and more, “my memory isn’t failing, just that my forgetter is getting better”. I am right behind you. benhur1954

 

[spina1953]

Cool. As an old pastor used to say more and more, “my memory isn’t failing, just that my forgetter is getting better”. I am right behind you. benhur1954

HI benhur: I know the feeling it happens to us when we get that way. so its cool.

 

[benhur]

What I’ve noticed is that most firm, did-hard Protestants were usually born Protestants. All of the Protestant converts from Catholicism that I have studied about seem to have converted because of personal biases, which the Bible speaks out against. For example: birth control and other sinful things that are embraced by modern society, and made to be embraced my Protestantism.

I have known many ex catholics and most did not become"protestant’’ because
of what you say (easier rules, bias, not facing biblical mandates).

The Protestant reformers were clouded and confused by local issues. For example, the Church never taught about selling and buying indulgences, yet Martin Luther spoke against it when one church practiced this sinful act. I respect what Martin Luther spoke out against, but he made one mistake; he judged the whole Church based on one sinful church. Should I judge the tree based off of one bad fruit?

Well as one preacher said to a drunk who boasted of being saved at one of his tent meetings, still drunk, “well it certainly must have been me who saved you but it certainly wasn’t the Lord”. Yes, maybe the Lord used somebody troubled and confused over a trivial matter, but to confound the wise, the healthy and the unsick ?

You seem to be ignoring some of my posts, because you’re too afraid to learn something, but isn’t it in the Bible to ‘test all spirits’? There is not a doubt in my mind that you would be one of the Jews that would persecute and ridicule Jesus, because he taught the way; just because you wouldn’t test him first. Closed-mindedness is an ultimate act of too much self-pride.

Again I have ignored zero posts that I know of… Well. Jesus was also accused of “changing the subject”, and answering a question with another question, and with stories that seemed to be evasive.

There is not a doubt in my mind that you would be one of the Jews that would persecute and ridicule Jesus

Yes I did, before I was born again. I did when I was very open minded ( to everything but Jesus, for broad was my way, to hell). Don’t
forget that he who is for Jesus is not against Him, even if he does not run in your circle.

 

[benhur]

It all goes down to one question, really: Do you trust the opinions of the apostles, and the people who knew apostles, or ‘reformers’ who practiced faiths that were nonexistent before the 1500’s? It is always up to you.

This the same kind of question the Jewish magisterium asked the blind man healed by Jesus… Wow.Nothing is new under heaven. The more things change the more they stay the same

 

[Nanotwerp]

This the same kind of question the Jewish magisterium asked the blind man healed by Jesus… Wow.Nothing is new under heaven. The more things change the more they stay the same

Yet it wasn’t the Jewish magisterium that was against Jesus; it was the Jews themselves. As I typed before, you would, without a doubt, be one of the persecuting Jews.

 

[Nanotwerp]

Which post did I ignore ? You asked if I knew of His letter and i answered. You then said look at his catholic church rendering . I did and gave you my opinion on the matter. Met you head on. Agreed he used "catholic’’ but as an adjective. Understand you think it is link to early name of your church, and that that church is your church today, that they are the same. Understand, just disagree. If differing opinion is “ignoring”, well sorry, for am grateful of having to think about your historical proposition. I incidentally have not heard from you regarding my thoughts on the matter. Is catholic an ancient Greek word ? Could it have been used in an adjective with Ignatius ? Is it difficult to discern because all letters are capitalized in the Greek ? I am not Lutheran but even they say they follow Christ not Luther ( in fact that is stated just a few posts above , onceagain) Most reformers were not ignorant, but were well educated by the Catholic system

Yet he rather explicitly wrote ‘Catholic Church’, and rather explicitly stated he was in communion with it. Did you try reading the letter?

 

[Dalphon]

There are two instances in the Book of Revelation where the saints and angels in Heaven are taking our prayers and presenting them to God. That is intercession, and it proves this was a practice from the first moments of Christian history.

Angels are messengers but we are never to pray to an angel. The New Age folks do that. The Jews always prayed to God only. Jesus said “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.” My family and friends are Catholic, I was raised Catholic so I know about praying to saints.

This is what the apostles taught in the bible. As guanophore said earlier, it was written by Catholics for Catholics.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

 

[PRmerger]

Angels are messengers but we are never to pray to an angel.

Bible verse for this, please!

 

[PRmerger]

The Jews always prayed to God only.

Perhaps.

But then again, they also rejected Christ, so I don’t know that your example above is trenchant.

Jesus said “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.”

If you are to take this as an instructional, as in this means, therefore we pray ONLY to God the Father, then do you ONLY pray in a closet?

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.–Matthew 6:6

My family and friends are Catholic, I was raised Catholic so I know about praying to saints.

With all due respect, I doubt that you could offer any knowledge of your Catholic faith, without seeking recourse in Father Google.

I doubt, for example, if you could offer an answer to a very basic question such as, “Where is Scripture in the Mass?”

This is what the apostles taught:
Hebrews 4:16
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Catholics give a hearty Amen! to the above.

 

[Dalphon]

Bible verse for this, please!

Well actually it’s not in the bible. I’m going to get Catholic on you now. It’s Catholic tradition. It’s from a book called “Your Angels Guide My Steps.” A series of meditations from the writings of Bernard of Clairvaux who was a Catholic monk and Church reformer in the 13th century. Chapter 26 is from his knowledge of dominions, principalities and thrones. “We are not to focus our attention on the angels themselves. For the angels were created by God to show forth aspects of himself.”

 

[phil19034]

Well actually it’s not in the bible. I’m going to get Catholic on you now. It’s Catholic tradition. It’s from a book called “Your Angels Guide My Steps.” A series of meditations from the writings of Bernard of Clairvaux who was a Catholic monk and Church reformer in the 13th century. Chapter 26 is from his knowledge of dominions, principalities and thrones. “We are not to focus our attention on the angels themselves. For the angels were created by God to show forth aspects of himself.”

Correct… we do not give adoration to the Angels. We venerate or honor them because they are friends with God in Heaven. We only give adoration (true worship) to the Holy Trinity.

When Catholics pray to the Mary, the Saints, or to the Angels, our attention is always on God. We ask for their intercession, asking them to pray for & with us to God.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry, you take tradition one subtle step to far. 99.9999%
agreement is pretty good though but that .0001% is arsenic for both of us, a definite stumbling block.

No, benhur. Sacred Tradition, the Teaching of Jesus that is preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Church is not arsenic for those who receive it. It may be arsenic for those who reject it, however.

15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 2 Corinthians 2:15–16

God’s Word is only an affront to those who refuse to accept it.

No, they didn’t need to have those things, for perfect memory was theirs in the gifting and power of the Holy ghost .

This is a great testimony to the Gift of Infallibility that God has given to the Church.

That is why it was penned that God could have given us books thru inspired writers (no need for tape recorders or Bic pens) of what Jesus said and did to fill the earth…Again today is the day we have with us. Your argument would be like the Jews just after entreing in to the promised land saying that yes, they now have the books of Moses, they are authoritative, but not as much as Joshua and our collective giftings of the "jewish people,customs, religion "and having an “in” with Jehovah. Further, we knew of Adam to Abraham way before Moses penned a word thru oral tradition…

How did you think all that history got into Moses’ books? Are you honestly saying that God does not watch over HIs Word to perform it?

Sorry, but they almost treated that scripture almost as you might treat a sacred relic. They had as many rules about handling it and transcribing it as you do on handling the consecrated elements of communion… Joshua, the high priest, and prophets, and kings and Pharisees, and Saducees were subject to that Written Word, and many more that followed.

I am afraid you lost me here. Are you suggesting that the Jews should not have had such a degree of reverence for the Holy Scriptures?

As has been pointed out, the name “protestant” nor “Catholic” (as a noun, not adjective) were not around then .

On the contrary, benhur. The word “catholic” was first used in Acts 9:31, and by the time Ignatius was writing to the Smyrneans in 110 (or sooner) the adjective was in common use:

“Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as,** wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”**

Persons who did not hold Catholic faith were considered unbelievers, or heretics.

 Apostolic is as apostolic does, a Gumperism (Forest Gump movie, "stupid is as stupid does").

Actually, no.

The Apostles did not lose their God given role when they misbehaved. This concept was introduced at the Reformation to justify getting rid of the successors of the Apostles as a source of authority. It has no basis in the teachings of Jesus, ,or the Apostles, or any of the early Church writers. You can reject the authority appointed by Christ by appealing to Forrest Gump, ,but that does not abrogate the authority.

So, today see who is doing and preaching what the apostles did , not resting on what any church did yesterday ( admonition from Revelation 7 churches). Anything beyond that must be filter out any self serving, banner waving “parochialism”.

It sounds like you are saying that what God has revealed throughout history is really irrelevant, that what matters is your own perception of what you believe the apostles did.

 

[Dalphon]

Actually, the communion of saints has Jewish Roots…and it was actually the pagans, who did not believe in the intercession of saints.

No one in the Old Testament prayed to the dead except the heathens. It was called divination.

St. James gives New Testament testimony to this belief in Zaddiqim his epistle:

The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. (James 5:16-18)

He was talking about Elijah when Elijah was alive.

So you are saying they were not Catholic? What do you think is the name of the Church in those early years? What do you think the church was called after AD100 or so?

Douay-Rheims Bible
Acts 11:26 And they conversed there in the church a whole year; and they taught a great multitude, so that at Antioch the disciples were first named Christians.

Okay…who do you think so? What is the cause of all of this?

This applies to all denominations. The business of church, corruption, the love of money, absence of spirituality, incorrect teaching.

 

[Dalphon]

When Catholics pray to the Mary, the Saints, or to the Angels, our attention is always on God. We ask for their intercession, asking them to pray for & with us to God.

Not always. These are some quotes from Catholic saints. They reflect what was taught for many centuries in Catholicism. Compare them to what is taught in the bible.

Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Who is this Gate if not Mary? Mary is the Gate through which Christ entered this world!
St. Ambrose

John 10:19 Douay-Rheims Bible
I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.​

Mary is the whole hope of our salvation.
St. Thomas Aquinas

To reach the Eternal Father, we must go to Jesus, our Mediator of Redemption . . . To go to Jesus, we must go to Mary: she is our Mediatrix of Intercession.
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

As you cannot come to God except by means of Jesus Christ, you likewise cannot come to Christ except by means of His Mother . . . As we have access to the Father only by means of the Son, so do we have access to the Son only by means of the Mother.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

**The Bible **
Hebrews 4:16
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Matt 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.…

 

[jimiduzit]

The question , “where were the Protestants before the 1500’s?” They were being burned at the stake, stretched on the rack, and suffering numerous other forms of torture and being murdered for not bowing to the church of Rome.

 

[jimiduzit]

hiding from Rome