Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[Porknpie]

You are taking arguments from other people and applying them to me. I don’t believe praying to a saint is an act of worship. I don’t think it’s wrong for Catholics to pray to saints. It’s just not something I do because for me it’s not necessary. I believe I can pray to God.

The earliest Christians - all Catholic - prayed to St. Peter and St. Paul asking for their intercession. We can see the evidence of this in the catacombs of Rome. Reference article is here.

They may not have thought of it as “necessary” yet they saw value in doing so. They understood that the prayers of the righteous man availeth much, was not limited to those on living on earth. Rather, those in heaven ARE righteous and worthy of our prayers.

PnP

James 5:16
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

 

[spina1953]

As a Discalced Carmelite Secular one of the things I learned about prayer from the writings of St. Teresa of Avila is that Prayer is a conversation with God, so when we pray we are talking to God. We can talk to the saint or angels even the Blessed Mother Mary to intercede for us just as if we had to go to court and needed others to speak on our behalf to the judge, so why not have the saints intercede for us before God on our behalf that he might have mercy on us? prayer is not just some formal way of talking to God but more a personal way one can come closer to Him who loves us. Prayer can be vocal, or silent, but either way it is a conversation with God and praying to those who have gone before us to intercede helps us to better live in the way Christ taught through the Apostles and the CC.

 

[benhur]

What gives you the presumption that the letter was in upper-case, as you seem to describe it?

Hey , I read it on the internet! " In its classical and modern forms, the alphabet has 24 letters, ordered from alpha to omega. Like Latin and Cyrillic, Greek originally had only a single form of each letter; it developed the letter case distinction between upper-case and lower-case forms in parallel with Latin during the modern era." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet

And what makes you think the Catholic Church isn’t universal?

it is only universal to Catholics, as Lutheranism or JW to themselves. That is, all around the world you will find close likeness of each in its own kind . You may say you are universal in that perhaps you are in a slight majority (vs Orthodox and P’s etc). Some could argue that you are not universal because of the Orthodox and P’s and a few others being somewhat “apart” from you . Another words, how can you be universal if a few of your major belief’s are not held by almost half of Christendom. By strict definition there can be said to exist a universal church that consists between all believers who have a shared set of beliefs. I understand that this definition is denied by Trent and even Vat 2, which stress only one church (Catholic) though we are all under her umbrella.

 

[benhur]

The earliest Christians - all Catholic - prayed to St. Peter and St. Paul asking for their intercession. We can see the evidence of this in the catacombs of Rome. Reference article is here.

They may not have thought of it as “necessary” yet they saw value in doing so. They understood that the prayers of the righteous man availeth much, was not limited to those on living on earth. Rather, those in heaven ARE righteous and worthy of our prayers.

PnP

James 5:16
16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Was it part of Roman culture to also write on their graves words to their gods that may assist the departed ? Did they not have gods for every occasion and even day of the week/year ? Not totally sure,Anyways, are the departed living omnipresent and or omniscient ? Did not ancient cultures believe that of some of their venerated heroes had some of these god like qualities in the beyond ?

 

[Nanotwerp]

Hey , I read it on the internet! " In its classical and modern forms, the alphabet has 24 letters, ordered from alpha to omega. Like Latin and Cyrillic, Greek originally had only a single form of each letter; it developed the letter case distinction between upper-case and lower-case forms in parallel with Latin during the modern era." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet

it is only universal to Catholics, as Lutheranism or JW to themselves. That is, all around the world you will find close likeness of each in its own kind . You may say you are universal in that perhaps you are in a slight majority (vs Orthodox and P’s etc). Some could argue that you are not universal because of the Orthodox and P’s and a few others being somewhat “apart” from you . Another words, how can you be universal if a few of your major belief’s are not held by almost half of Christendom. By strict definition there can be said to exist a universal church that consists between all believers who have a shared set of beliefs. I understand that this definition is denied by Trent and even Vat 2, which stress only one church (Catholic) though we are all under her umbrella.

But the Catholic Church was ‘universal’ since the beginning, given that the homeland of Catholicism is in Rome. Do you know the history of Rome during Christianity? Rome was the literal capital of the world, and literally people from everywhere came there to meet. All rites of Catholicism have the same beliefs, but different ways of expression; is that an issue? Can you say the same about Protestantism?

 

[Nanotwerp]

Was it part of Roman culture to also write on their graves words to their gods that may assist the departed ? Did they not have gods for every occasion and even day of the week/year ? Not totally sure,Anyways, are the departed living omnipresent and or omniscient ? Did not ancient cultures believe that of some of their venerated heroes had some of these god like qualities in the beyond ?

With that logic, Zoroastrians believed in Angels before most Jews did?

You’re pretty much calling the people who knew and were taught by Peter the Apostle pagans

You probably believe in the closed-minded ‘church corruption’ theory that most Protestants have; used to further keep them from thinking about Christianity’s history.

As I typed before, I’m pretty sure people who were directly taught by and guided by an apostle have more authority in this matter than someone of a new, man-made belief-system.

Plus, about 7 books were removed by Martin Luther to support his beliefs, and this is what keeps Protestants so cloudy today; about many subjects, such as the intercession of saints.

 

[Porknpie]

Was it part of Roman culture to also write on their graves words to their gods that may assist the departed ? Did they not have gods for every occasion and even day of the week/year ? Not totally sure,Anyways, are the departed living omnipresent and or omniscient ? Did not ancient cultures believe that of some of their venerated heroes had some of these god like qualities in the beyond ?

Benhur,

Are you suggesting that the Christians had not turned from paganism? St. Peter and St. Paul were not gods, but departed human beings. They did not even have the status of “Lords” as in the case of the Roman emperors.

I would suggest that inscriptions fit perfectly with the Catholic theology and apostolic belief in praying to the saints. As there is only one body of Christ, and every limb needs each other to function, God in his mystery has a special ear for the prayers of the departed saints in order to build up the body. They are righteous. It is through God’s great mercy and love that he allows and desires intercessory prayer happen.

Then of course we can see the OT prefigurement of the Davidic Kings hearing the petitions from their Queen Mothers. As Jesus is the King of Kings, it follows that Jesus would listen to the intercessory prayers made to his mother.

 

[benhur]

But the Catholic Church was ‘universal’ since the beginning, given that the homeland of Catholicism is in Rome.

There was a universal church at the beginning as there is now. Was she always centered in Rome ? Don’t think so.

Do you know the history of Rome during Christianity? Rome was the literal capital of the world, and literally people from everywhere came there to meet.

Yes but did Rome become the center for Christianity by design or default ? Was it true spiritual inheritance or just that Rome, secular, political Rome was the center of the western world ? That is my argument for the reason the Corinthians may have appealed to Rome’s church when difficulty arose, not because of Peter’s chair(design), but because of defaulted influence of being “Roman”, where all roads lead to.

All rites of Catholicism have the same beliefs, but different ways of expression; is that an issue?

Again, universal within its own kind but apart from others, so a limited universality.

Can you say the same about Protestantism?

P’s also have their own universality after it’s own kind. For instance they are universal in not being in communion with Rome structurally. But again, Lutherans are universal as are Anglicans and others etc. again in their own kind, a limited universality.

 

[benhur]

Benhur,
Are you suggesting that the Christians had not turned from paganism?

My point is obfuscated by your superfluous suggestion. Of course they came from, and renounced their paganism, yet we are filled with traditions that incorporate the two. That is, a particular pagan tradition shell may remain but the contents and context is Christianized. Think of Christmas trees and easter eggs and other traditions.

As there is only one body of Christ, and every limb needs each other to function, God in his mystery has a special ear for the prayers of the departed saints in order to build up the body.

Sure, but do the departed saints have a special ear for our prayers ? How do they seem to have same attributes of seeing and hearing as the Godhead ? I mean some folks seem to "talk’ to the departed as though they would to the ever present ever hearing, ever seeing Paraclete.

As Jesus is the King of Kings, it follows that Jesus would listen to the intercessory prayers made to his mother.

Well Jesus hears all things, just not sure Mary has that Godly attribute.

 

[Nanotwerp]

There was a universal church at the beginning as there is now. Was she always centered in Rome ? Don’t think so. Yes but did Rome become the center for Christianity by design or default ? Was it true spiritual inheritance or just that Rome, secular, political Rome was the center of the western world ? That is my argument for the reason the Corinthians may have appealed to Rome’s church when difficulty arose, not because of Peter’s chair(design), but because of defaulted influence of being “Roman”, where all roads lead to. Again, universal within its own kind but apart from others, so a limited universality. P’s also have their own universality after it’s own kind. For instance they are universal in not being in communion with Rome structurally. But again, Lutherans are universal as are Anglicans and others etc. again in their own kind, a limited universality.

You wouldn’t even be a Christian without Christianity’s spread throughout the Roman Empire. And no, it was never because of political reasons; if it were, Rome wouldn’t still be the capital of Catholicism, even though Rome isn’t as important as a modern empire. Rome is the home of Catholicism because of its diverse, universal, and general roots.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe praying to a saint is an act of worship. I don’t think it’s wrong for Catholics to pray to saints.

Excellent.

It’s just not something I do because for me it’s not necessary. I believe I can pray to God.

Could you answer me this, please, Dalphon: do you think prayer chains are unnecessary? All the people in your church need to do is go to God directly with their petitions?

 

[Porknpie]

My point is obfuscated by your superfluous suggestion

I was suggesting nothing just asking for a point of clarity.

Of course they came from, and renounced their paganism, yet we are filled with traditions that incorporate the two. That is, a particular pagan tradition shell may remain but the contents and context is Christianized.

There is no evidence that prayers to St. Peter and St. Paul were based on a cultural context of paganism. Prayers to them do fit with the apostolic & Catholic teaching of intercessory prayer. I’m not aware of any early Church synod or Council where intercessory prayer was viewed a outgrowth of paganism.

Sure, but do the departed saints have a special ear for our prayers ?

I’m not sure that they have special ears because they lack a resurrected body, but they hear what God allows. He’s the one with the power. God gives the saints the ability to both hear our supplications and to petition Him on our behalf. St. Cyril of Jerusalem reflects this teaching below:

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs**, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . **. . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Well Jesus hears all things, just not sure Mary has that Godly attribute.

Only Jesus is divine and hears “all things”. Mary, like all the other Saints, knows and hears what God allows. And, like all the Saints, she points us to follow her Son: “Do whatever he asks.”

 

[spina1953]

I was suggesting nothing just asking for a point of clarity.

There is no evidence that prayers to St. Peter and St. Paul were based on a cultural context of paganism. Prayers to them do fit with the apostolic & Catholic teaching of intercessory prayer. I’m not aware of any early Church synod or Council where intercessory prayer was viewed a outgrowth of paganism.

I’m not sure that they have special ears because they lack a resurrected body, but they hear what God allows. He’s the one with the power. God gives the saints the ability to both hear our supplications and to petition Him on our behalf. St. Cyril of Jerusalem reflects this teaching below:

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs**, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . **. . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Only Jesus is divine and hears “all things”. Mary, like all the other Saints, knows and hears what God allows. And, like all the Saints, she points us to follow her Son: “Do whatever he asks.”

Hi porknpie: Great post!

 

[jmcrae]

Which post did I ignore ? You asked if I knew of His letter and i answered. You then said look at his catholic church rendering . I did and gave you my opinion on the matter. Met you head on. Agreed he used "catholic’’ but as an adjective.

As do we. When we say we are members of the Catholic Church, we mean that we are members of that assembly of persons (Church) that is universally available to all, regardless of which period of time in Christian history you reside in, and what part of the world you reside in (Catholic).

As the Council of Nicaea defined it, we are “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.”

Understand you think it is link to early name of your church, and that that church is your church today, that they are the same.

Our Pope traces his Office back to the Pope who was head of the Catholic Church in the time of St. Ignatius (and through him, all the way back to St. Peter, who received the Papacy from Christ, as it is recorded in John 21:15-19). Our Bishops trace their lineage back to the Bishops who were working for the Catholic Church in those days, and through them to the Apostles who appointed the first Bishops of the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

I have known many ex catholics and most did not become"protestant’’ because
of what you say (easier rules, bias, not facing biblical mandates).

When I was Protestant, I knew plenty of ex-Catholics who came to our church to be married to a second spouse after divorce, and who sent their kids to our Sunday School because they thought Mass was “too hard” for them (one year I had more Catholic children than Protestant children in the Sunday School class I was teaching), and who used birth control because they thought being pro-life was “unreasonable.”

 

[SteveVH]

…do the departed saints have a special ear for our prayers ? How do they seem to have same attributes of seeing and hearing as the Godhead ? I mean some folks seem to "talk’ to the departed as though they would to the ever present ever hearing, ever seeing Paraclete.
Well Jesus hears all things, just not sure Mary has that Godly attribute.

They have been incorporated into the mystical Body of Christ and therefore share in his divinity in a very real way. Yes, the saints hear our prayers and they intercede for us before God; they who are now in complete union with God. We, who are the Body of Christ on earth, are not separated from the Body of Christ in heaven. We are one Body.

As for Mary, she will eternally be the mother of our Lord and her Lord, Jesus Christ. Because the saints are the Body of Christ, she is our mother as well and we can address her as our mother and she acts as our mother when interceding for us before her Son.

 

[jmcrae]

Not always. These are some quotes from Catholic saints. They reflect what was taught for many centuries in Catholicism. Compare them to what is taught in the bible.

Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Who is this Gate if not Mary? Mary is the Gate through which Christ entered this world!
St. Ambrose

Mary is the Gate through whom Jesus entered the world. She gave Him his human nature and his human body, with her DNA, in her womb.

B]John 10:19 Douay-Rheims Bible

I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.

Jesus is our Gate, to go to Heaven. But if Jesus had not entered the world through Mary, then He could not have become the means of our salvation.

Mary is the whole hope of our salvation.
St. Thomas Aquinas

If you doubt this, imagine if she had said “No, thanks,” when Gabriel came to her with the message of God. She would have still been without sin, because it is not a sin to refuse an unreasonable request - but we would not have had a Saviour.

But Mary loves us more than she loves her own life and the plans that she had made for herself, so she said “Yes,” and it didn’t stop there. She continues to pray for us and intercede for us with her Spouse, her Father, and her Son, in every moment of every day, for all of eternity.

 

[jmcrae]

The angel appeared to Mary. She wasn’t praying to the angel.

She was making communication with a supernatural being - that’s what “praying” is.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually he wrote something like this , " I AM IN COMMUNION WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF WHICH" of course in Greek I believe which are all capitals . I am just saying i believe proper english translation would not have a capital c as you have placed it. it could easily read, “I am in communion with the catholic church of which……” Yes I read it. yes he espoused a universal church , one that he saw in many different cities as he traveled to Rome supposedly. Different cities, different countries, different cultures, yet believers united in similar faith, hence universal. Here is preferred translation by Lightfoot , " 8:2 Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is the** universal Church.**" earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-lightfoot.html

It was not “similar.” It was the same. They all had Bishops who were the successors of the Apostles leading their churches, and they were all in full communion with the Bishop of Rome, as well as with each other.

 

[Dalphon]

She was making communication with a supernatural being - that’s what “praying” is.

Luke 1:26 During Elizabeth’s sixth month of pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin. She was engaged to marry a man named Joseph from the family of David. Her name was Mary.

Mary was not seeking communication with an angel. God sent the angel. In other words, she did not make the phone call. The angel stopped by because God sent him. The same is true with Joseph. Joseph did not initiate communication with the angel. It was sent to him in a dream. He was sleeping. He was not praying to anyone.

Matt 1: 18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.