Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[guanophore]

The angels and saints kick into action when we pray to the Father.

Yes, but not only then. They kick in when we are NOT praying/obeying also, just as the angel who withstood Balaam (Numbers 23).

Jesus used the book of Psalms as His prayer book, as did the Apostles. It was a matter of routine for them to address the angels in prayer:

20 Bless the Lord, all ye his angels: you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders.
21 Bless the Lord, all ye his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will.
22 Bless the Lord, all his works: in every place of his dominion, O my soul, bless thou the Lord. Psalm 102:20–22

2 Praise ye him, all his angels, praise ye him, all his hosts.
3 Praise ye him, O sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars and light.
4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens: and let all the waters that are above the heavens
5 Praise the name of the Lord. For he spoke, and they were made: he commanded, and they were created. Psalm 148:2–5

This custom continued in the Church, as prayers of this kind were incorporated into the Liturgy.

 

[guanophore]

They don’t do it now.

I am not sure who “they” are, Dalphon, but “they” must not be reciting their Liturgy of the Hours or the Liturgies of the Patriarchs. These litanies are most common in High Masses (particularly at Easter Vigil). Liturgies that celebrate OT saints are not as common in the Novus Ordo as they were in the Traditional calendar of Feasts and Memorials. Since the new Calendar only affected the Latin Rite, the other 22 Rites still have them. They were not removed because the belief of prayer was changed, though.

Litany to Old Testament Saints
Lord, have mercy on us.
Christ, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us. Christ, hear us.
Christ, graciously hear us.
God the Father of Heaven,
Have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world,
Have mercy on us.
God the Holy Spirit,
Have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, One God,
Have mercy on us.
God of Abraham,
Have mercy on us.
God of Bethel, (El Bethel)
Have mercy on us.
Mighty One of Jacob,
Have mercy on us.
God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob,
Have mercy on us.
God Almighty, (El Shaddai)
Have mercy on us.
God the Most High, (El-Elyon)
Have mercy on us.
Yahweh,
Have mercy on us.

Archangel Michael,
Pray for us.
Archangel Gabriel,
Pray for us.
Archangel Raphael,
Pray for us.
All you holy angels and archangels,
Pray for us.
Noah,
Pray for us.
All you holy people before the flood,
Pray for us.
Abraham,
Pray for us.
Isaac,
Pray for us.
Jacob,
Pray for us.
Joseph,
Pray for us.
All you holy patriarchs,
Pray for us.
Aaron,
Pray for us.
All you holy priests,
Pray for us.
Moses,
Pray for us.
Joshua,
Pray for us.
All you holy leaders,
Pray for us.
David,
Pray for us.
All you holy kings,
Pray for us.
Job,
Pray for us.
Tobit,
Pray for us.
All you holy men,
Pray for us.
Sarah,
Pray for us.
Rebecca,
Pray for us.
Rachel,
Pray for us.
Miriam,
Pray for us.
Deborah,
Pray for us.
Ruth,
Pray for us.
Hannah,
Pray for us.
Judith,
Pray for us.
Esther,
Pray for us.
All you holy women,
Pray for us.
Samuel,
Pray for us.
Jeremiah,
Pray for us.
Ezekiel,
Pray for us.
Daniel,
Pray for us.
Malachias,
Pray for us.
Elijah,
Pray for us.
Elisha,
Pray for us.
Isaias,
Pray for us.
All you holy prophets,
Pray for us.
Abel,
Pray for us.
Eleazar,
Pray for us.
Ananias,
Pray for us.
Azarias,
Pray for us.
Misael,
Pray for us.
All you holy martyrs and heroic witnesses,
Pray for us.

All you holy men and women, Old Testament saints of God,
Make intercession for us.
Be merciful,
Spare us, O Lord.
Be merciful,
Graciously hear us, O Lord.

From all evil,
O Lord, deliver us.
From all sin,
O Lord, deliver us.
From breaking Your Commandments,
O Lord, deliver us.
From falling away from the Faith,
From doubting Your Word,
O Lord, deliver us.
From denying Your Name,
O Lord, deliver us.
From fear of proclaiming Your Name,
O Lord, deliver us.
From lack of sincere repentance,
O Lord, deliver us.
From losing hope,
O Lord, deliver us.
From fear of fraternal correction,
O Lord, deliver us.
From doubt of Your Power,
O Lord, deliver us.
From all false desires,
O Lord, deliver us.
From lack of zeal in Your service,
O Lord, deliver us.

We sinners,
We implore You, hear us.
That we continue to walk by faith,
We implore You, hear us.
That we witness to You regardless of human respect,
We implore You, hear us.
That we grow in love for Your Holy Word,
We implore You, hear us.
That we appreciate the blessing of having children,
We implore You, hear us.
That we overcome evil by the power of good,
We implore You, hear us.
That we who have more respond more,
We implore You, hear us.
That the Jewish nation will recognize You,
We implore You, hear us.
That all non-Christians will come to the Light,
We implore You, hear us.
That You would give eternal rest to the faithful departed,
We implore You, hear us.
That You would grant my special intention,
We implore You, hear us.

Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world,
Spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world,
Graciously hear us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, Who takes away the sins of the world,
Have mercy on us. Amen.

catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=467

 

[guanophore]

Who don’t? I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean the patriarchs are off somewhere, not praying, maybe comparing elbows? Or that this is no longer part of the Mass? And if so, which? the Latin or the one in common use?

I am sure that the elbows are still part of Mass. I remember getting mine pinched as a child when I was disruptive, and I just heard a bit on Catholic radio that this is still a recommended method of helping youngsters learn appropriate behavior in the pew.

 

[Tomyris]

They are.
All ye holy angels and archangels,
All ye holy orders of blessed spirits,
Saint John the Baptist,
Saint Joseph,
All ye holy patriarchs and prophets,
Saint Peter,

Ok, I THINK we have established that (good) Catholics pray to angels…

Now, it’s time for your killer Bible verse(s) showing this is wrong.

I am thinking, if I am a member of the Body of Christ, I might well be an elbow…

 

[Dalphon]

Ok, I THINK we have established that (good) Catholics pray to angels…

Now, it’s time for your killer Bible verse(s) showing this is wrong.

I am thinking, if I am a member of the Body of Christ, I might well be an elbow…

I already did that in post #318

Hebrews 4:16
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Matt 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.…

 

[clem456]

Not always. These are some quotes from Catholic saints. They reflect what was taught for many centuries in Catholicism. Compare them to what is taught in the bible.

Mary is called “The Gate of Heaven” because no one can enter Heaven but through her means.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

Who is this Gate if not Mary? Mary is the Gate through which Christ entered this world!
St. Ambrose

John 10:19 Douay-Rheims Bible
I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.​

Mary is the whole hope of our salvation.
St. Thomas Aquinas

To reach the Eternal Father, we must go to Jesus, our Mediator of Redemption . . . To go to Jesus, we must go to Mary: she is our Mediatrix of Intercession.
St. Louis Marie de Montfort

As you cannot come to God except by means of Jesus Christ, you likewise cannot come to Christ except by means of His Mother . . . As we have access to the Father only by means of the Son, so do we have access to the Son only by means of the Mother.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

It seems you honor the inspiration of Scripture. Yet you are using scripture very selectively to further your own POV against what Scripture actually says.

God trusts the fullness of revelation (Jesus) to a poor Jewish teenaged woman. As a Christian, do you accept this as true?
When John says

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son

the though must cross your mind that Jesus did not fall from heaven as a book, or hatch from a golden egg. Am I right? Was he, or was he not, cared for in the womb of a human mother? Did the Holy Spirit conceive Jesus in Mary’s womb?
These things are undeniable Christian doctrine, taken directly from Scripture.

28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. 31Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35And the angel answering, said to her: **The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. **

I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to be lacking in respect for this woman. I find it interesting that we believe we know who is worthy of respect, over and above who God gives full grace to, who is praised by angels, and conceives with the Holy Spirit?
This is **God’s will **in action.

Dalphon
**The Bible **
Hebrews 4:16
Let us, therefore, come boldly unto the throne of his grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Matt 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.…

Yes, and.
See above.

 

[Dalphon]

I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t want to be lacking in respect for this woman. I find it interesting that we believe we know who is worthy of respect, over and above who God gives full grace to, who is praised by angels, and conceives with the Holy Spirit?
This is **God’s will **in action.

Yes, and.
See above.

I knew someone would accuse me of disrespecting Mary.

The gospel message is this: “Believe in Jesus and you will be saved.” “There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.” They were speaking of Jesus. The Catholic Church then starts teaching salvation comes through Mary. Is that another gospel?

 

[guanophore]

I knew someone would accuse me of disrespecting Mary.

The gospel message is this: “Believe in Jesus and you will be saved.” “There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.” They were speaking of Jesus. The Catholic Church then starts teaching salvation comes through Mary. Is that another gospel?

It does seem that way, I think, to some anti-Catholic and fundamentalist groups.

But you are in error that “the CC then starts teaching…”. The proof this is not accurate is found in the Eastern Churches. All Churches founded by Apostles have these beliefs about Mary, even those who have no love lost on the CC.

Mary is the person by whom Christ came into the world, so she is not separated from His saving work, but an integral part of it.

Despite the fact that you believe our beliefs are wrong, I do not see you disrespecting them, or even finding fault with us for believing them. On the contrary, you seem to have an attitude that you will do what you believe is right for you to do, and commend Catholics to do what they believe is right for them to do.

 

[clem456]

I knew someone would accuse me of disrespecting Mary.

The gospel message is this: “Believe in Jesus and you will be saved.” “There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved.” They were speaking of Jesus. The Catholic Church then starts teaching salvation comes through Mary. Is that another gospel?

Respect for her would be to see her as God sees her, and as the angels praise her -in Scripture-. Salvation IS Jesus Christ. He (salvation) comes to us through Mary.
Do you deny that God gave us Jesus (who is salvation) through Mary?
And if God has such awesome trust in this woman, are you to have less trust than God himself?
That is an interesting position to be in.

 

[Dalphon]

Respect for her would be to see her as God sees her, and as the angels praise her -in Scripture-. Salvation IS Jesus Christ. He (salvation) comes to us through Mary.
Do you deny that God gave us Jesus (who is salvation) through Mary?
And if God has such awesome trust in this woman, are you to have less trust than God himself?
That is an interesting position to be in.

I respect Mary. Jesus came through Mary. I trust Mary but it is necessary to proclaim the gospel which was proclaimed by the apostles if you want to claim apostolic succession.

 

[clem456]

I respect Mary. Jesus came through Mary. I trust Mary but it is necessary to proclaim the gospel which was proclaimed by the apostles if you want to claim apostolic succession.

Exactly :clapping:

28And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. 31Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? 35And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

46And Mary said:

“My soul exalts the Lord,

  47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

  48“For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
        **For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.**

  49“For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
        And holy is His name.

  50“AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION
        TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.

  51“He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
        He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.

  52“He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
        And has exalted those who were humble.

  53“HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
        And sent away the rich empty-handed.

  54“He has given help to Israel His servant,
        In remembrance of His mercy,

  55As He spoke to our fathers,
        To Abraham and his descendants forever.”

It’s all about God. Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Jesus was incarnate in Human flesh.

And the Word became flesh

Do you dispute that Jesus took on human nature and had a mother?
Do you dispute the Gospel passages above the explicitly honor the Mother of God and her pivotal role in salvation?

 

[Dalphon]

It does seem that way, I think, to some anti-Catholic and fundamentalist groups.

But you are in error that “the CC then starts teaching…”. The proof this is not accurate is found in the Eastern Churches. All Churches founded by Apostles have these beliefs about Mary, even those who have no love lost on the CC.

Since I was not educated in their schools I don’t know what they teach, but if they teach salvation comes through Mary alone and we must approach Jesus through Mary, then they are also not being true to the apostolic message.

Mary is the person by whom Christ came into the world, so she is not separated from His saving work, but an integral part of it.

Despite the fact that you believe our beliefs are wrong, I do not see you disrespecting them, or even finding fault with us for believing them. On the contrary, you seem to have an attitude that you will do what you believe is right for you to do, and commend Catholics to do what they believe is right for them to do.

Yes. That’s right. You are good, devout people. Everyone on CAF is. Nothing personal against you or anyone else I communicate with. My complaint is with the confusing and complicated way the gospel is presented by the Church. The pope now says atheists can be saved if they do good. Pope Benedict and Pope John said Jews can be saved under the old covenant. The catechism says the plan of salvation includes the Muslims. Those who where the scapula can be saved by wearing the scapula. It goes on and on. When are they just going to proclaim the gospel?

 

[guanophore]

I respect Mary. Jesus came through Mary. I trust Mary but it is necessary to proclaim the gospel which was proclaimed by the apostles if you want to claim apostolic succession.

Dalphon , dear sister, you seem to have fallen in with some anti-Catholic fundamentalists. The same happened to me when I was younger, and poorly catechized.

These groups reduce the “gospel” to a reader’s digest version. They cherry pick a few verses out of the Bible and claim that this is the “gospel”. But this is only a recent innovation to discount the Teaching of the Apostles, and to deny the authority of the Church.

On the contrary, the “gospel” is the entire message of salvation, and is not reduced to a few choice verses. Mary, then, ,is never separated from that Gospel, as we see from the opening of the memoirs of the Apostles given the name “gospels”.

The message proclaimed by the Apostles contained all that Jesus began to do and to teach, not just a handful of verses.

 

[guanophore]

Since I was not educated in their schools I don’t know what they teach, but if they teach salvation comes through Mary alone and we must approach Jesus through Mary, then they are also not being true to the apostolic message.

Were you taught in Catholic school that you must approach Jesus through Mary?

Where did you get your present ideas about what is contained in the “apostolic message”?

Yes. That’s right. You are good, devout people. Everyone on CAF is. Nothing personal against you or anyone else I communicate with. My complaint is with the confusing and complicated way the gospel is presented by the Church.

Yes, certainly 2000 years of faith becomes quite ponderous. I am not sure that anyone has read or grasped all that has been written about the faith. I can see how it would be confusing to get “the Gospel”. I was confused also, and did not learn to read the Scripture until I fell in with some Baptists!

The pope now says atheists can be saved if they do good.

LOL. I don’t think he said it quite that way. However, the concept is entirely biblical.

Pope Benedict and Pope John said Jews can be saved under the old covenant.

God did say the covenant was everlasting. Who are we to dictate how God saves His Chosen people?

The catechism says the plan of salvation includes the Muslims.

God’s plan of salvation includes every human person. Muslims worship the God of Abraham.

Those who where the scapula can be saved by wearing the scapula. It goes on and on. When are they just going to proclaim the gospel?

I don’t think you will find this in the Catechism, and you have simplified the principle here beyond reason. Those who wear the Scapula are saved by grace, through faith in Christ. The little cloth they wear is just a reminder of their saving faith.

The Gospel is not just one liners, Dalphon. I am sorry that you did not get the point of it. I didn’t get it either, but it is not because it isn’t taught.

 

[Dalphon]

Dalphon , dear sister, you seem to have fallen in with some anti-Catholic fundamentalists. The same happened to me when I was younger, and poorly catechized.

I’m a man.

These groups reduce the “gospel” to a reader’s digest version. They cherry pick a few verses out of the Bible and claim that this is the “gospel”. But this is only a recent innovation to discount the Teaching of the Apostles, and to deny the authority of the Church.

Well then I suppose the 12 apostles had the readers digest version too.

On the contrary, the “gospel” is the entire message of salvation, and is not reduced to a few choice verses. Mary, then, ,is never separated from that Gospel, as we see from the opening of the memoirs of the Apostles given the name “gospels”.

Mary was alive when the apostles started preaching. They never told anyone you must see Mary first. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. That was the original message.

The message proclaimed by the Apostles contained all that Jesus began to do and to teach, not just a handful of verses.

Those who confessed faith in Jesus were immediately baptized. The gospel is ingeniously simple. A child could understand it. It is simple enough for an illiterate, uneducated or even mentally disabled person to understand. There is no need to complicate it.

 

[clem456]

My apologies for the implication of disrespect.

But can you address the questions specifically?

 

[Dalphon]

God did say the covenant was everlasting. Who are we to dictate how God saves His Chosen people?

God can do whatever he wants but the Catholic Church always said the Jews can’t be saved. Now they teach differently.

God’s plan of salvation includes every human person. Muslims worship the God of Abraham.

That’s not right. They don’t accept the trinity and they don’t practice baptism. If they attain salvation through Abraham, that’s another gospel. More confusion.

The following is what the Catholic Church taught for centuries.

The Athanasian Creed
Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.

If Catholic bishops today are not saying this, can we accuse them of being heretics?

 

[Dalphon]

My apologies for the implication of disrespect.

But can you address the questions specifically?

No questions, just a plea for simplification. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

 

[zz912]

Mary, Joseph and others had conversations with angels who were sent to them with a specific message to fulfill a plan of God. That does not mean we should all be talking to angels. It means that if God sends one to you, then take it from there. You can’t use these examples as a lesson in speaking to angels and make it the norm. That would be “focusing our attention on the angel.”

God creates a guardian angel that looks out specifically for you. And your reaction to that is one of ignoring this special angel.

That seems a tad rude.

 

[zz912]

No questions, just a plea for simplification. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

And what does it mean to “believe”. Do you view this word as some emotional response? Or is it something that must be acted upon?