Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[Dalphon]

Martin Luther disliked Jews; therefore, you are anti-Semitic.

What do the teachings of Martin Luther have to do with me? Do you think I believe everything he said?

 

[Nanotwerp]

They’re not traditions. They’re my own opinions.

And traditions.

 

[Dalphon]

I have no idea what you two are talking about.

 

[Nanotwerp]

I have no idea what you two are talking about.

Tradition: a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular.

I would define many Protestant beliefs, including the disbelief of the Real Presence in Eucharist, as traditions.

 

[PRmerger]

They’re not traditions. They’re my own opinions.

Opinions are things like, “I think butter pecan is the best flavor of ice cream!”

Having a discussion about whether one’s preference is better than the other’s is a giant waste o’ time.

I would never try to convince someone that my taste in ice cream is better than another’s.

However, if I am trying to express a belief, such as, “Ice cream is bad for you!”, then I clearly want to convince other people that my belief is correct.

Which one does “We should never pray to angels” fall into? Is it your opinion? Kind of like, “I would never try kim chee!” or is it a belief? Something you want to convince others that you are right about?

 

[Dalphon]

We Catholics look at the Word of God in its entirety. Not just snippets.

So do I. I’m just giving you what I would tell a dying man if he asked me “What must I do to be saved?” I wouldn’t have time to read the whole catechism to him or all the scriptures you just gave me.

 

[Nanotwerp]

So do I. I’m just giving you what I would tell a dying man if he asked me “What must I do to be saved?” I wouldn’t have time to read the whole catechism to him or all the scriptures you just gave me.

So basically you would tell the dying man to believe in something that the apostles of the Early Church spoke firmly against as heresy? Well, then.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No, literally you don’t (we all confess a lot of things). And that’s not even the issue; it’s if there is only one name under Heaven by which we must be saved paired with the teaching that one has to be a member of the RCC for salvation.

Jesus only has one body, and the Body of Christ has a name by which it has been known since the end of the first century - the Catholic Church. So, in confessing Christ, we confess all that is known about Him including the governance of the Church which He promised to build, etc., etc.

The RCC has now got to the point where you aren’t just confessing things that are true for Him, but you must confess things that are true for others, even to the point of having their own dogmas that give them titles, not just Jesus. And again, we can agree all day long on the Saviour; on Jesus Himself, and that apparently isn’t good enough. Rightly or wrongly that raises concerns, as well as hurdles, even for the sincere seeker.

Mary would be a long-forgotten peasant girl from Israel if not for her Son. Therefore, the truths that we confess about her only have meaning because of their relationship to Him.

When you love someone, you want to know everything about him or her…their favorite foods, what kind of music they like, where their family is from and so forth. Similarly, people want to know more about Jesus, and some of these truths have to do with His vicar, Peter, and his mother, Mary.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So do I. I’m just giving you what I would tell a dying man if he asked me “What must I do to be saved?” I wouldn’t have time to read the whole catechism to him or all the scriptures you just gave me.

Would you have time to read the entire Bible to him? :nope:

Look, I’m a former Protestant, so I have a little bit of insight into how they think, okay? So, let me explain the Catechism to you in a way that might make more sense to you.

Imagine that you go to church one Sunday and hear a really good sermon by the pastor of your church. You are so impressed with his talk that you call the church office on Monday to get a copy of his notes. You’re in luck…it turns out that the tape ministry department has just completed duplicating the sermon, and you can stop by to get a copy to listen to while you’re driving. Delighted, you drive over and buy a copy…er, make a free-will love offering…and pick up the notes…

The following Sunday, the same thing happens. And the next. And the next. After awhile you have a notebook full of your pastor’s talks and a tape library of all your favorites to match. Yes, sir…you’ve learned a lot from this gifted man of God…you’re really being fed in this church.

The Catechism is sorta like that except that it represents the Catholic Church’s “Greatest Hits” of the past 2,000 years.

 

[Dalphon]

Which one does “We should never pray to angels” fall into? Is it your opinion? Kind of like, “I would never try kim chee!” or is it a belief?

It is my opinion. If my Catholics friends go to easter vigil and participate in the litany of the saints, that’s great. I will even go with them. No opportunity for fallen angels to get in there. On the other hand I have a Catholic friend who goes to mass every week but also consults angel cards. I don’t know if you’re familiar with angel cards but they are tarot cards. She defends the practice by telling me that’s how she contacts her angel and uses scripture to back it up. She also does readings for her friends. Personally I don’t think God’s holy angels would speak by means of tarot cards.

Also I come from a large Catholic family and I used to attend mass every week. I never heard any talk about praying to angels until recently. My mother and father went to mass their whole life and never spoke about praying to angels. So what’s up with it now?

 

[Dalphon]

The Catechism is sorta like that except that it represents the Catholic Church’s “Greatest Hits” of the past 2,000 years.

Thank you. I can appreciate your sentiment. You have something that’s served you well and you want me to have the same experience.

 

[PRmerger]

So do I. I’m just giving you what I would tell a dying man if he asked me “What must I do to be saved?” I wouldn’t have time to read the whole catechism to him or all the scriptures you just gave me.

But why did you pick that verse, and not any of the other dozens?

Why didn’t you say, “Repent and be baptized” or “Eat His Flesh and drink His blood” or “Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord” or…

Where does the Bible say that that verse is the one you tell a dying man?

 

[PRmerger]

No, literally you don’t (we all confess a lot of things). And that’s not even the issue; it’s if there is only one name under Heaven by which we must be saved paired with the teaching that one has to be a member of the RCC for salvation.

Nope. One doesn’t have to be a “member” of the CC for salvation.

However, if one is saved, it’s because of the Catholic Church.

A distinction that’s of great import.

 

[Dalphon]

So basically you would tell the dying man to believe in something that the apostles of the Early Church spoke firmly against as heresy? Well, then.

The early church spoke against repentance and faith in Jesus?

 

[PRmerger]

It is my opinion.

Well, that’s ridiculous to express opinions that you don’t believe are true for all, at least as it applies on a religious forum.

Imagine spending 30 pages on a thread talking about your opinion that butter pecan is the best flavor of ice cream.

No one does that.

However, one does spend 30 pages trying to convince others that praying to angels is contrary to Scripture.

That’s because it’s a belief he has. He thinks one way is right and the other way is wrong.

 

[Dalphon]

But why did you pick that verse, and not any of the other dozens?

Why didn’t you say, “Repent and be baptized” or “Eat His Flesh and drink His blood” or “Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord” or…

Where does the Bible say that that verse is the one you tell a dying man?

What verse are you talking about?

 

[guanophore]

 Well then I suppose the 12 apostles had the readers digest version too.

No, not by any means.

1 In the first book, O The-ophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. Acts 1:1–3

If there really was a reader’s digest version that could be captured in just a handful of verses, then what did Jesus talk about for three years?

9 but when some were stubborn and disbelieved, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the hall of Tyrannus. 10 This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks. Acts 19:9–11

What did Paul talk about for two years?

42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. Acts 2:42–43

What was the content of this teaching, and what were the prayers? None of this was ever boiled down into a handful of verses. On the contrary, it was an entire way of life.

 Mary was alive when the apostles started preaching. They never told anyone you must see Mary first. Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. That was the original message.

And it is still the same message. The Church’s understanding of Mary’s role was not clear at first. It really came into clarity after certain heresies arose that needed to be defended.

But we can be sure that, ever since that wedding day in Cana, all the disciples were very clear that His mother had His ear.

  Those who confessed faith in Jesus were immediately baptized. The gospel is ingeniously simple. A child could understand it. It is simple enough for an illiterate, uneducated or even mentally disabled person to understand. There is no need to complicate it.

I am glad we are in agreement about something!

But it is not the entry into eternal life that is complicated, but the working out of our salvation. Not all of us are simple minded, and to those whom much is given, much is required.

 

[Kliska]

Mary would be a long-forgotten peasant girl from Israel if not for her Son. Therefore, the truths that we confess about her only have meaning because of their relationship to Him.

True, but still isn’t the issue.

When you love someone, you want to know everything about him or her…their favorite foods, what kind of music they like, where their family is from and so forth. Similarly, people want to know more about Jesus, and some of these truths have to do with His vicar, Peter, and his mother, Mary.

This isn’t about knowing information about Mary, this is what you have to profess, and fully and faithfully believe in order to attain salvation. Scripture says one thing about what you must trust in order to be saved, and Who you have to have that trust about, the RCC adds in another, or at least that is the way it appears, for, I can fully and faithfully believe every single thing about Jesus right along with you, but that is now not enough for the RCC. It’s not something I’m demanding to be changed, it’s not my place obviously , but I do think it is pertinent to what “we” are “protesting” in modern time, and where some of the stumblingblocks lie in the road for someone sincerely checking things out.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Nope. One doesn’t have to be a “member” of the CC for salvation.

However, if one is saved, it’s because of the Catholic Church.

A distinction that’s of great import.

Hear this, people.

 

[Randy_Carson]

True, but still isn’t the issue.

This isn’t about knowing information about Mary, this is what you have to profess, and fully and faithfully believe in order to attain salvation. Scripture says one thing about what you must trust in order to be saved, and Who you have to have that trust about, the RCC adds in another, or at least that is the way it appears, for, I can fully and faithfully believe every single thing about Jesus right along with you, but that is now not enough for the RCC. It’s not something I’m demanding to be changed, it’s not my place obviously , but I do think it is pertinent to what “we” are “protesting” in modern time, and where some of the stumblingblocks lie in the road for someone sincerely checking things out.

One last attempt…

One of the Marian dogmas is that Mary is the Mother of God.

Is it necessary to profess this belief, in your opinion?