Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[PRmerger]

Well if the scenario occurred on a descending airplane or at the site of an erupting volcano or maybe to be more realistic a person who is overdosing on heroin, then that person or group of people would know very soon.

This applies to every human person, Dalphon. When we die, we “know very soon” whether we are saved or not.

So it’s an inutile point you’re making.

My point is that no one can “have salvation” this side of heaven.

Are we agreed on that?

 

[Dalphon]

This applies to every human person, Dalphon. When we die, we “know very soon” whether we are saved or not.

So it’s an inutile point you’re making.

My point is that no one can “have salvation” this side of heaven.

Are we agreed on that?

You’re avoiding the issue. Do we need to tell them about Mary also in order to be saved. The apostles didn’t. They were not denying Mary as the theotokos by not including her in their preaching.

If you want to discuss eternal security we can do that next.

 

[PRmerger]

You’re avoiding the issue. Do we need to tell them about Mary also in order to be saved. The apostles didn’t. They were not denying Mary as the theotokos by not including her in their preaching.

If you want to discuss eternal security we can do that next.

Catholicism does not reduce the kerygma to that which we need to tell a dying person.

Let me ask you this question: do we need to tell them about the Trinity in order to be saved?

 

[Picky_Picky]

How then would you propose a syllogism which concludes that cows are mammals?

Only mammals produce milk
Cows produce milk
Therefore …

Or

All milk is produced by mammals
Cows produce milk
Therefore …

 

[Dalphon]

Catholicism does not reduce the kerygma to that which we need to tell a dying person.

I would not advise anyone to raise their children on one paragraph from scripture. I’m just getting down to the basics of salvation in a life and death situation which you may be in one day. Be prepared. When people are dying of dehydration the Peace Corps doesn’t take them to a 5 star restaurant. They give them water.

Let me ask you this question: do we need to tell them about the Trinity in order to be saved?

In an emergencies such as I mentioned before, no. If they live, they should go to a church where they will be properly taught about persevering until the end.

If you’re feeling me out to see what I believe about the trinity, yes I believe in the trinity. Did the apostles preach about the trinity? No. It wasn’t defined at that time.

 

[PRmerger]

Only mammals produce milk
Cows produce milk
Therefore …

Or

All milk is produced by mammals
Cows produce milk
Therefore …

Fair enough.

I amend my response to Kliska. She is willing to profess that Mary is the Mother of God. But also maintains, “I can profess and fully believe Jesus is God, and is also human, etc… etc… without ever giving Mary that title [Theotokos]”

But that is like saying:

Only mammals produce milk.
Cows produce milk.
But that doesn’t mean that I have to declare that cows are mammals.

It’s an incoherent position.

 

[PRmerger]

In an emergencies such as I mentioned before, no. If they live, they should go to a church where they will be properly taught about persevering until the end.

So belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation, according to your pastor/preacher/church?

 

[Dalphon]

So belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation, according to your pastor/preacher/church?

My church teaches the trinity. If I only had 30 seconds to tell a person about salvation I would not mention all that my church teaches.

Anyway the catechism says Muslims can be saved and they don’t accept the trinity so why not question that?

 

[clem456]

What Kliska is saying is this, and I think you know it’s. If all you had was the following paragraph to say and those who were listening believed what you said, they would have salvation.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Then baptize them.

What you are proposing is a minimalist faith.
One which asks for only the basic requirements, without all the beauty of the faith, and without all the challenges proposed for us.
Your scenario above essentially uses death as an incentive to force a quick “yes” from one who has not lived a life immersed in God’s love. For sure, I hope at my death I am united to Christ.
But we live now, and you and I have decisions to make. We have a life to live. The fullness of our faith can’t be reduced to reciting a passage or two. Faith is an invitation to immerse yourself in Christ and all that is revealed in him. His mother and many other things are important elements of that faith.

I would submit that living in a minimalist way is at least as dangerous as believing strongly against the Lord, as St Paul did.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’re avoiding the issue. Do we need to tell them about Mary also in order to be saved. The apostles didn’t. They were not denying Mary as the theotokos by not including her in their preaching.

Okay, this hypothetical person is on an airplane that is going down…time is short…you tell the person he needs Jesus, and you lead him in the sinners prayer. Great! He’s saved.

But wait…at the last second, the engines start again and the captain pulls the plane out of its dive and lands safely. The passengers talk briefly to CNN reporters and then disperse to their own homes. Weeks go by…

Shouldn’t this new Christian begin to learn more about Jesus than the little bit you had time for on the plane? Yeah, I think so, too.

So, here’s the deal, Dalphon:

Why Marian Dogmas are Important

One reason - perhaps the main reason - we seek to accept and understand the Marian dogmas is because of our love for our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Think about this for a moment…when you first fell in love with your husband, wife or current “significant other”, weren’t you completely fascinated by him or her? Didn’t you want to know all the details you could possibly learn about him or her?

Where she grew up? What kind of music he liked to listen to? Favorite restaurants, foods, books? Didn’t you want to know where (s)he went to school or where (s)he worked, lived and hung out on the weekends?

Didn’t you want to know what he/she thought about politics, religion and the local sports teams? Did you want to learn about his or her family background?

Loving Jesus is a lot like that. We study the scriptures to learn what He said. We read commentaries to get background information on the geography of Israel and the religious climate of the day. What and where are the Sheep Gate and Pool of Siloam? Why were the Romans in Jerusalem? Who were the Sadducees and what made them different from the Pharisees? What was life like for Jesus growing up, and what may have happened during those silent years before his public ministry began? We want to know these things because we love Him.

We look at Mary because we love her son, and we want to know everything we can about Him. Mary loves Him, too, and by her excellent example, she leads us right back to Him: “Do whatever He tells you.”

If you want to discuss eternal security we can do that next.

Sounds like a hoot. Let us know when you’re ready.

 

[PRmerger]

My church teaches the trinity. If I only had 30 seconds to tell a person about salvation I would not mention all that my church teaches.

Now, let’s connect the dots here, Dalphon.

You started out this particular tributary by saying that it’s not necessary to embrace what the Church teaches about Mary in order to be saved.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12390273&postcount=427

You’re also saying, then, that it’s not necessary to embrace the Trinity in order to be saved?

All that is required is to believe in the Lord Jesus?

Yes? Or No?

Anyway the catechism says Muslims can be saved and they don’t accept the trinity so why not question that?

What’s the problem? You seem to be saying that we don’t need to believe in the Trinity either?

 

[Randy_Carson]

My church teaches the trinity. If I only had 30 seconds to tell a person about salvation I would not mention all that my church teaches.

Anyway the catechism says Muslims can be saved and they don’t accept the trinity so why not question that?

Because God judges the heart and there may be Muslims who live lives more pleasing to God than many Baptists or Catholics. Only He knows.

What I would say, however, is that the Catholic Church is the means by which God provides for our salvation under normal circumstances.

 

[adrift]

Only mammals produce milk
Cows produce milk
Therefore …

Or

All milk is produced by mammals
Cows produce milk
Therefore …

It should be stated
All creatures that produce milk are mammals.
Cows produce milk therefore they are mammals

 

[adrift]

You’re avoiding the issue. Do we need to tell them about Mary also in order to be saved. The apostles didn’t. They were not denying Mary as the theotokos by not including her in their preaching.

If you want to discuss eternal security we can do that next.

To clarify when I speak of Apostles I mean the 12 .

We have written record of what the Apostle preached?
As far as I know, only Matthew and Peter committed anything to writing. we have no record of what the other 10 preached. Your statement cannot be verified now can it?

 

[Randy_Carson]

My church teaches the trinity. If I only had 30 seconds to tell a person about salvation I would not mention all that my church teaches.

Anyway the catechism says Muslims can be saved and they don’t accept the trinity so why not question that?

DALPHON: A dying man with 30 seconds to live does not need to hear about the Trinity to be saved.

PRmerger: Muslims do not need to hear about the Trinity to be saved.

*This *ought to be good…

 

[Picky_Picky]

It should be stated
All creatures that produce milk are mammals.
Cows produce milk therefore they are mammals

Well, I prefer the conclusion on a separate line from the premises, but that’s just being picky. Your syllogism is the same as my second, and equally licit.

 

[Picky_Picky]

To clarify when I speak of Apostles I mean the 12 .

We have written record of what the Apostle preached?
As far as I know, only Matthew and Peter committed anything to writing. we have no record of what the other 10 preached. You statement cannot be verified now can it?

Better than that, I think it is generally accepted that we do not have Matthew’s writing, and widely disputed that we have Peter’s. Am I wrong?

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger: Muslims do not need to hear about the Trinity to be saved.

*This *ought to be good…

Huh? That’s not my position.

I have no idea what’s the minimum amount of the kerymga a Muslim needs to be saved.

I believe in all of it.

 

[spina1953]

As for this saved business, I have to say there are those who come to my door and the first question they ask me is are toy saved? I tell that no one saved till they are in heaven. They try to tell me that they are already saved so then I ask them if there are already in heaven? they say no, and I say then till you are in heaven you are not saved. They just walk away with a funny look on their face. What this tells me is that among the many protestants out there are those who somehow think or believe that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they are automatically saved and so do not have do anything else to be saved. It seems to me that they do not understand that there is more to it than that.

One of the very reasons we believe in what the CC teaches is that it has and is teaching the very same things it taught for nearly 2000 years being passed on by the Apostles themselves having learned it from Jesus Himself and guided by the Holy Spirit to remember all that Jesus taught them.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Huh? That’s not my position.

I have no idea what’s the minimum amount of the kerymga a Muslim needs to be saved.

I believe in all of it.

Oh. Well, quickly then, do you believe that some Muslims may be saved despite not having heard the gospel message?