Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[adrift]

Better than that, I think it is generally accepted that we do not have Matthew’s writing, and widely disputed that we have Peter’s. Am I wrong?

It only makes my point more valid.

The dispute is not for this thread. Give it another hundred years and the “experts” will reverse.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Better than that, I think it is generally accepted that we do not have Matthew’s writing, and widely disputed that we have Peter’s. Am I wrong?

You are wrong.

Some dispute 2nd Peter (I don’t know how many), but generally scholars accept the others.

 

[PRmerger]

Oh. Well, quickly then, do you believe that some Muslims may be saved despite not having heard the gospel message?

Yes, indeed.

 

[Picky_Picky]

It only makes my point more valid.

The dispute is not for this thread. Give it another hundred years and the “experts” will reverse.

Yes, I specifically said it made your point more vald.

As to it not being for this thread: you raised the lack of written work by the apostles, not me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes, indeed.

So…Muslims do not need to hear about the trinity to be saved…?

 

[clem456]

Oh. Well, quickly then, do you believe that some Muslims may be saved despite not having heard the gospel message?

I personally hope that all Muslims, all humanity for that matter, will be saved. If I proclaim the Gospel by word and deed, that hope may be more likely to come to fruition.

As far as predictions or speculation on who’s in and who’s out? That’s above my pay grade.

 

[Picky_Picky]

You are wrong.

Some dispute 2nd Peter (I don’t know how many), but generally scholars accept the others.

You think Matthew is by Matthew?

 

[clem456]

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[PRmerger]

So…Muslims do not need to hear about the trinity to be saved…?

I don’t know what they need to hear about.

I do know that our Scriptures proclaim that all of us can come to know God through the light of human reason, alone. All of us. Jew, Muslim, Bahai, Atheist.

So if a Muslim is saved, it’s through his human reason, being joined to the Eternal Logos, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

So without the Trinity, no salvation.

Can he be saved without* knowing* about the Trinity? It’s certainly possible.
Can he be saved without the Trinity? Absolutely not.

 

[adrift]

Yes, I specifically said it made your point more vald.[Q

You did??? Oh I see you said better than that is that what you mean by specifically making my point more valid?

As to it not being for this thread: you raised the lack of written work by the apostles, not me.

Only raise because you stated

They were not denying Mary as the theotokos by not including her in their preaching.

Which the question is how do you know they didn’t since there is no record of all they preached? In fact, according to you there is no written record at all.
[/quote]

 

[adrift]

You think Matthew is by Matthew?

I do and the people who said it was him was closer in time than those “experts” 2000 years later.

 

[Dalphon]

What you are proposing is a minimalist faith.

I already covered that one.

I would not advise anyone to raise their children on one paragraph from scripture. I’m just getting down to the basics of salvation in a life and death situation which you may be in one day. Be prepared. When people are dying of dehydration the Peace Corps doesn’t take them to a 5 star restaurant. They give them water.
If they live, they should go to a church where they will be properly taught about persevering until the end.

One which asks for only the basic requirements, without all the beauty of the faith, and without all the challenges proposed for us.
Your scenario above essentially uses death as an incentive to force a quick “yes” from one who has not lived a life immersed in God’s love. For sure, I hope at my death I am united to Christ.

Actually I’m in agreement with Catholic teaching on the deathbed scenario. Ever heard of a deathbed confession? The parable of the servants in the vineyard? Those who showed up late got the same pay.

 

[Dalphon]

Okay, this hypothetical person is on an airplane that is going down…time is short…you tell the person he needs Jesus, and you lead him in the sinners prayer. Great! He’s saved.

But wait…at the last second, the engines start again and the captain pulls the plane out of its dive and lands safely. The passengers talk briefly to CNN reporters and then disperse to their own homes. Weeks go by…

Shouldn’t this new Christian begin to learn more about Jesus than the little bit you had time for on the plane? Yeah, I think so, too.

I already covered that in 601.

I would not advise anyone to raise their children on one paragraph from scripture. I’m just getting down to the basics of salvation in a life and death situation which you may be in one day. Be prepared. When people are dying of dehydration the Peace Corps doesn’t take them to a 5 star restaurant. They give them water.
If they live, they should go to a church where they will be properly taught about persevering until the end.

So, here’s the deal, Dalphon:

Why Marian Dogmas are Important

We look at Mary because we love her son, and we want to know everything we can about Him. Mary loves Him, too, and by her excellent example, she leads us right back to Him: “Do whatever He tells you.”

If we point people to Jesus and say “Do whatever He tells you.” we are doing exactly what Mary did.

 

[Dalphon]

Now, let’s connect the dots here, Dalphon.

You started out this particular tributary by saying that it’s not necessary to embrace what the Church teaches about Mary in order to be saved.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12390273&postcount=427

You’re also saying, then, that it’s not necessary to embrace the Trinity in order to be saved?

All that is required is to believe in the Lord Jesus?

Yes? Or No?

What’s the problem? You seem to be saying that we don’t need to believe in the Trinity either?

You seem to be saying belief in the Trinity is not necessary for salvation also.

I don’t know what they need to hear about.

I do know that our Scriptures proclaim that all of us can come to know God through the light of human reason, alone. All of us. Jew, Muslim, Bahai, Atheist.

So if a Muslim is saved, it’s through his human reason, being joined to the Eternal Logos, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

So without the Trinity, no salvation.

Can he be saved without* knowing* about the Trinity? It’s certainly possible.
Can he be saved without the Trinity? Absolutely not.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

You think Matthew is by Matthew?

Certainly.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t know what they need to hear about.

I do know that our Scriptures proclaim that all of us can come to know God through the light of human reason, alone. All of us. Jew, Muslim, Bahai, Atheist.

So if a Muslim is saved, it’s through his human reason, being joined to the Eternal Logos, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

So without the Trinity, no salvation.

Can he be saved without* knowing* about the Trinity? It’s certainly possible.
Can he be saved without the Trinity? Absolutely not.

We agree.

Wait, and we’re Catholic…that’s not supposed to be possible.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

So…Muslims do not need to hear about the trinity to be saved…?

There is that possibility.

A baptized child who dies before the age of reason is also saved apart from knowing about the Trinity.

But saved through the Trinity, nonetheless.

Now, a normal, adult muslim would likely not be able to maintain the innocence of a child, and so Christ’s judgment would, of course, prevail.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If we point people to Jesus and say “Do whatever He tells you.” we are doing exactly what Mary did.

Exactly. The Church holds her in such high esteem precisely because she is such a good model for us to follow.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There is that possibility.

A baptized child who dies before the age of reason is also saved apart from knowing about the Trinity.

But saved through the Trinity, nonetheless.

Now, a normal, adult muslim would likely not be able to maintain the innocence of a child, and so Christ’s judgment would, of course, prevail.

I agree. The consensus grows…

 

[Dalphon]

To clarify when I speak of Apostles I mean the 12 .

We have written record of what the Apostle preached?
As far as I know, only Matthew and Peter committed anything to writing. we have no record of what the other 10 preached. Your statement cannot be verified now can it?

The bible was compiled by the early Catholic Church. They made the call on what should be published. In those writings, Acts, Hebrews, John etc. we see no apostle leading people to Mary. If it happened and wasn’t recorded, that’s not a problem to me. My position is the same. The apostles in the New Testament writings didn’t preach a message that included Mary. They weren’t ignoring her. They weren’t being disrespectful. They were following the orders of Jesus. Go into all the world and preach the gospel.