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Dalphon
Guest
It says these gifts are given to all. How many of these gifts are evident in your local church?
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PRmerger
Guest
Source for this, please (second time I’ve asked).
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adrift
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
Do you think it’s possible for your pastor to be wrong when he thinks he’s right? Especially if he’s…fallible?
Then I suppose you would have left Jesus because of Judas? And because of Peter? And Paul? And all the other disciples who were…sinners?
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PRmerger
Guest
So you actually are incorrect in that your church teaches the Bible only. And Jesus only.
It appears that for 52 weeks of the year, year after year after year, you have been following a NON-BIBLICAL tradition of worshipping on Sundays.
Please remember this next time you tell someone that your church believes in the Bible Alone.
You will need to say: except for when we worship on Sundays. We follow Sacred Tradition on that.
(And when you quote, say, Hebrews, as the inspired Word of God. You also follow Sacred Tradition in that, too.)
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Dalphon
Guest
It’s in post #749
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Dalphon
Guest
You are correct. I read it wrong. It says “for the profit of all.”
It says the exact opposite that these gifts are not given to all.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.”
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Dalphon
Guest
So what is the biblical tradition for New Testament believers if I wanted to do that? I’ll put it in the suggestion box.
Thank you for clearing that up. And you will have to say my church is infallible except for those times when they are not.
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PRmerger
Guest
Firstly, where does it say that they go to hell?
Secondly, do you not believe that it is a sin to commit suicide?
Thirdly, what is the Church’s teaching today that you believe has changed?
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PRmerger
Guest
That is indeed the Church’s teaching.
She is imperfect, but that she is ensouled with the Holy Spirit, and thus, when she speaks on issues of faith and morals from the Chair of Peter, she is infallible.
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PRmerger
Guest
Are we agreed now that your church does NOT follow its own teaching about preaching the Bible Alone?
Every week it contradicts its own teaching?
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adrift
Guest
Incorrectly stated, the teaching has always been and still is that those saved will be saved through the Church. Stated earlier to you. Christ saves us the Church cannot be separated from Him. There is only one baptism and through baptism you are united to the Church no matter how imperfectly.
I would like a source for this as well. I was always taught that we could not know if the last seconds the person repented.
It isn’t because eating meat was a sin but that disobedience to the Church is a mortal sin. It is a discipline that the Church had authority over.
God hasn’t told us this and it has never been a teaching, as you have been told. What is it when a falsehood is corrected but the person holds on to it even after being told it is a lie. Isn’t that false witness?
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Tomyris
Guest
How about Acts 20:7? This verse is an example, not a command, so it is sort of weak, but then it is Paul…
We celebrate the resurrection of Christ weekly and it is fitting that it be done on the day of the week when he rose (no verse here, just an observation). We are to worship ceaselessly, by the way, not just on one day a week. I think Paul enjoins the Thessalonians thataway, not sure where. Maybe Thessalonica.
There are numerous Christians out there who fiercely defend Saturday as the day of worship, including Messianic Jews (some of whom do NOT appreciate the Greek ‘Christian’ label and some of whom reject Paul) as well as Seventh Day Adventists.
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Dalphon
Guest
“persons who willfully and knowingly commit such an act die in a state of mortal sin”
No
The giving hope part and the Christian burial. They should have said it the first time.
baltimore-catechism.com/lesson33.htm
PREVIOUS TEACHING
Q. 1274. What sin is it to destroy one’s own life, or commit suicide, as this act is called?
A. It is a mortal sin to destroy one’s own life or commit suicide, as this act is called, and persons who willfully and knowingly commit such an act die in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of Christian burial. It is also wrong to expose one’s self unnecessarily to the danger of death by rash or foolhardy feats of daring.
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
They pray now. No church funeral before - that means your out. If you died in the state of mortal sin there was no hope. That was a constant teaching. Venial sin = purgatory. Mortal sin = hell. Nothing about “by ways and means known to Him” or “God is not bound by His own sacraments.”
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PRmerger
Guest
If we use that example consistently, then we have to say that our preachers should also preach until midnight (when they intend to leave the next day).
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
I haven’t heard any pastor invoking that as a tradition.
Egg-zactly. No verse.
Indeed. From the rising of the sun to its setting, a Catholic Mass is being offered around the world.
Yes. Another rotten fruit of the Prot. Ref. Divorcing oneself from the Tradition.
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PRmerger
Guest
Really?
You believe your life is yours to take as you see fit? It does not belong to God, to take as He sees fit?
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Dalphon
Guest
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.
ewtn.com/library/encyc/p12mysti.htm
MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI (On the Mystical Body of Christ)
Pope Pius XII
Encyclical promulgated on 29 June 1943
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.
25. Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.
41. They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous error who believe that they can accept Christ as the Head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible head, broken the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.
baltimore-catechism.com/lesson33.htm
Q. 1274. What sin is it to destroy one’s own life, or commit suicide, as this act is called?
A. It is a mortal sin to destroy one’s own life or commit suicide, as this act is called, and persons who willfully and knowingly commit such an act die in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of Christian burial. It is also wrong to expose one’s self unnecessarily to the danger of death by rash or foolhardy feats of daring.
OK
I don’t hold on to it. I never believed it. I’m only showing what the church taught before Vatican II.
baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm
Q. 632. Where will persons go who – such as infants – have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism?
A. Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism, cannot enter heaven; but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yeah. So who knows that? That’s between God and the poor soul.
The Church has never said that you go to hell if you commit suicide. It’s above our paygrade.
Perhaps.
The Church may not always present things in the best way. That is not part of her charism, as far as infallibility goes.
Both of those are 2 sides of the same coin.
One does not say: it’s a mortal sin to commit suicide…
while the other saying: it’s not a mortal sin to commit suicide.
Here is another grave error about Catholicism you believe.
From whence comes this idea that if you don’t get a Catholic funeral you are condemned to hell?
That’s just ga-ga la-la nonsense.
I must repeat: it’s NEVER been Church teaching that “no church funeral means you’re out”.
Well, there’s always been hope because we could never know if someone died in the state of mortal sin.
Yes. That is still the teaching. Constant.
Because the Church has presented a better understanding is not the same as saying the Church has changed her teaching.
You would have to offer first a teaching that said “God is bound by His own sacraments” and then “God is not bound by His own sacraments.”
That would indicate a change.
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Dalphon
Guest
Well I really did not want to get into this. It’s a personal issue with a family member. You can contact me if you want to know about it.
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
There were no Protestants then, BTW. So one was either a Catholic, a pagan, Jew or Muslim.
So this is consistent with your church’s teaching, I presume, which is if someone is a pagan, Jew or Muslim, he cannot be saved unless he clings to Jesus?
Incidentally, the fact that you quote from a document from the 15th century is great testimony to the historicity of the CC.
One has to wonder if you could offer a document from your church from the 15th century?
Or did it start in America in the 1970’s? Or the 30’s? Or the 1800?s
Either way, it’s not the 1400s.
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