Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[Porknpie]

Nope.

It was a mortal sin before. It’s still a mortal sin today.

No change.

The fact that a Catholic funeral/burial is permitted today is a change in discipline, not in the teaching.

PR -

Suicide is grave sin.

When done with full knowledge and complete consent it would be mortal.

I know you know this but for the lurkers…

 

[PRmerger]

PR -

Suicide is grave sin.

When done with full knowledge and complete consent it would be mortal.

I know you know this but for the lurkers…

 

[Novocastrian]

PR -

Suicide is grave sin.

When done with full knowledge and complete consent it would be mortal.

I know you know this but for the lurkers…

(With apologies for continuing to discuss suicide below…)

Presumably the relaxation of the discipline regarding burial rites for suicides is due to the recognition that ‘full knowledge’ and ‘complete consent’ are unlikely to be found in those troubled individuals who feel so desperate as to be unable to continue in this life. The fearful, despairing suicide of the modern world is a far cry from the proud Roman falling on his sword etc. It is far easier, and appropriate, to commend the former to the mercy of God within the bosom of the Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You’re supposed to get rid of people in the church who are immoral. Are you saying it does not apply to leaders?

But that’s not what you did. You didn’t “get rid of people in the church who are immoral.” You left the Catholic Church because you didn’t like what some people (leaders, presumably) were doing.

Second, you’re not in a position of authority to make those decisions, anyway. No one gave you the right to get rid of anyone.

Third, if we get rid of EVERYONE who is immoral, the Church will be empty, because we’re all sinners.



You’re attempting to justify yourself.

Jesus said that we must not do what corrupt leaders do, but we must do what they say because they have legitimate authority from God.

You have chosen to do the opposite. Thus, you are not only not obeying legitimate leaders but you are not obeying Jesus, either.

By your own words you are condemned.

 

[Dalphon]

Nope.

It was a mortal sin before. It’s still a mortal sin today.

No change.

The fact that a Catholic funeral/burial is permitted today is a change in discipline, not in the teaching.

The difference is this: before V2 the families of those who committed suicide or lost an infant were left in despair. If only one side of the coin was presented, that’s not the whole truth. That could be considered deception or manipulation if they knew about it and didn’t mention it. If they didn’t know about it then they didn’t have the full counsel of God for 1963 years.

 

[Dalphon]

So you actually are incorrect in that your church teaches the Bible only. And Jesus only.

It appears that for 52 weeks of the year, year after year after year, you have been following a NON-BIBLICAL tradition of worshipping on Sundays.

Please remember this next time you tell someone that your church believes in the Bible Alone.

You will need to say: except for when we worship on Sundays. We follow Sacred Tradition on that.

(And when you quote, say, Hebrews, as the inspired Word of God. You also follow Sacred Tradition in that, too.)

It’s not a tradition. It’s a discipline.
It’s fun sparring with you. If you were a man we could get into a boxing ring a few times every week and keep ourselves in shape.

 

[Dalphon]

Third, if we get rid of EVERYONE who is immoral, the Church will be empty, because we’re all sinners.

That’s Paul’s advice to the Corinthian church. A man had his father’s wife and it was tolerated.
He’s saying don’t tolerate immoral behavior.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

That’s Paul’s advice to the Corinthian church. A man had his father’s wife and it was tolerated.
He’s saying don’t tolerate immoral behavior.

So, according to your actions, all the Corinthians should have left the Church by that time, right?

 

[Denise1957]

“persons who willfully and knowingly commit such an act die in a state of mortal sin”

No

The giving hope part and the Christian burial. They should have said it the first time.

baltimore-catechism.com/lesson33.htm

PREVIOUS TEACHING
Q. 1274. What sin is it to destroy one’s own life, or commit suicide, as this act is called?

A. It is a mortal sin to destroy one’s own life or commit suicide, as this act is called, and persons who willfully and knowingly commit such an act die in a state of mortal sin and are deprived of Christian burial. It is also wrong to expose one’s self unnecessarily to the danger of death by rash or foolhardy feats of daring.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

They pray now. No church funeral before - that means your out. If you died in the state of mortal sin there was no hope. That was a constant teaching. Venial sin = purgatory. Mortal sin = hell. Nothing about “by ways and means known to Him” or “God is not bound by His own sacraments.”

You wrote…“Mortal sin = hell.” But that’s always the case. There’s the culpability factor, which I believe was also taught in the old days (before Vll). I think it’s fine that there was no church funeral for suicides. It seems harsh, but suicide is a terrible thing, and there needs to be an example set about how grave it is to take one’s own life. That doesn’t mean that someone who commits suicide is in Hell.

 

[Denise1957]

You’re supposed to get rid of people in the church who are immoral. Are you saying it does not apply to leaders?

1 Cor 5:9 I wrote to you in an epistle, not to keep company with fornicators. 10 I mean not with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or the extortioners, or the servers of idols; otherwise you must needs go out of this world. 11 But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one, not so much as to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them that are without ? Do not you judge them that are within ? 13 For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves.

I think that the above quote from Corinthians should apply to leaders in the Church who have committed a serious sin. There was a time when a church leader, or member of the clergy or a religious who was guilty of fornication was sometimes banished to live out his life in a monastery, and to do penance for his sins. But those days are long gone. The terrible crisis of the sex abuse of children in the Church was obviously improperly handled by many Church leaders. Pope Benedict did go to work to try to change this, but much damage has been done, of course. I"m not sure, though, that the Church ever had a policy of “getting rid of” those found to be in serious sin. Banishment, yes. Or excommunication, at times.

I know that you have a lot of folks to address from quite a few posts here, so you needn’t respond to my post. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Denise1957]

The difference is this: before V2 the families of those who committed suicide or lost an infant were left in despair. If only one side of the coin was presented, that’s not the whole truth. That could be considered deception or manipulation if they knew about it and didn’t mention it. If they didn’t know about it then they didn’t have the full counsel of God for 1963 years.

And yet it would wrong to have those families who lost someone to suicide to believe that their family member is in Heaven (which someone who has committed suicide most certainly is not). The Church cannot claim that any particular person is in Hell. I don’t think that the Church has ever done this. The Church can say that someone is in Heaven (canonized saints), but not Hell. This is because there’s always a chance, before death, that a person can repent of what he or she has done. We cannot know the thoughts of a person upon their deathbed, or even someone who dies from suicide. But God knows.

 

[spina1953]

I think that the above quote from Corinthians should apply to leaders in the Church who have committed a serious sin. There was a time when a church leader, or member of the clergy or a religious who was guilty of fornication was sometimes banished to live out his life in a monastery, and to do penance for his sins. But those days are long gone. The terrible crisis of the sex abuse of children in the Church was obviously improperly handled by many Church leaders. Pope Benedict did go to work to try to change this, but much damage has been done, of course. I"m not sure, though, that the Church ever had a policy of “getting rid of” those found to be in serious sin. Banishment, yes. Or excommunication, at times.

I know that you have a lot of folks to address from quite a few posts here, so you needn’t respond to my post. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

Hi Denise 1957: I have to agree with you in what you said it seems true enough to me. I think that the CC is slowly changing in that those in the Cc priests Bishops etc. are now being deflocked for having been found to be guilty of sins like sex abuse of children etc.

I would like to add concerning ! Cor.5:9 The problem here that St. Paul addresses is that incest between a member of the Church and the stepmother. The Corinthians have experienced no Church discipline in this matter and Paul orders them to remove the offender from their fellowship until he repents. he then warns them against the impropriety of one Christian taking another to court before a pagan judge. They should rather be wiling to lose all(6:1-11) Paul then writes very strongly against the vice of fornication.

I think that over the years the CC has done just that at times because often we do not hear one way or the other what was done to those who sinned; seems to me that they just sent them to a parish after having repented, yet the abuses continued. Now because of it all they now have to go to civil court instead of how the CC used to do things about the abuses of the priests and bishops. I thinking is and it is just my opinion is that if they are caught doing that sort of thing then they need to be defloked and sent to prison.

 

[Denise1957]

Hi Denise 1957: I have to agree with you in what you said it seems true enough to me. I think that the CC is slowly changing in that those in the Cc priests Bishops etc. are now being deflocked for having been found to be guilty of sins like sex abuse of children etc.

I would like to add concerning ! Cor.5:9 The problem here that St. Paul addresses is that incest between a member of the Church and the stepmother. The Corinthians have experienced no Church discipline in this matter and Paul orders them to remove the offender from their fellowship until he repents. he then warns them against the impropriety of one Christian taking another to court before a pagan judge. They should rather be wiling to lose all(6:1-11) Paul then writes very strongly against the vice of fornication.

I think that over the years the CC has done just that at times because often we do not hear one way or the other what was done to those who sinned; seems to me that they just sent them to a parish after having repented, yet the abuses continued. Now because of it all they now have to go to civil court instead of how the CC used to do things about the abuses of the priests and bishops. I thinking is and it is just my opinion is that if they are caught doing that sort of thing then they need to be defloked and sent to prison.

I appreciate your post, including your explanation of the context of what St. Paul wrote, which I wasn’t aware of.

 

[PRmerger]

The difference is this: before V2 the families of those who committed suicide or lost an infant were left in despair. If only one side of the coin was presented, that’s not the whole truth. That could be considered deception or manipulation if they knew about it and didn’t mention it. If they didn’t know about it then they didn’t have the full counsel of God for 1963 years.

That the Church could have been more pastoral in their approach to these families is not disputed.

That the Church’s teaching has changed…not at all.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s not a tradition. It’s a discipline.
It’s fun sparring with you. If you were a man we could get into a boxing ring a few times every week and keep ourselves in shape.

Either way, you are not following the Bible Alone at every single Sunday worship service.

You are following Sacred Tradition, or discipline (Catholic discipline, to be exact).

So it’s *another *thing you’ve taken from us, while smashing the miters off the bishops’ heads and tearing down our altars (again, paraphrasing Mark Shea).
crisismagazine.com/2009/on-finding-christ-in-the-church

 

[PRmerger]

You wrote…“Mortal sin = hell.” But that’s always the case.

Did you mean “that NOT always the case”?

 

[Denise1957]

Did you mean “that NOT always the case”?

Oops! Yes, I meant to say…“That’s NOT always the case;” thanks for pointing out the error!

 

[Randy_Carson]

It’s not a tradition. It’s a discipline.
It’s fun sparring with you. If you were a man we could get into a boxing ring a few times every week and keep ourselves in shape.

Except that we’re not sparring for fun. We’re trying to help people see the truth.

And the haymaker that you have not responded to adequately was delivered in posts #751 & 798.

I see that you are quick to quote verses that you think apply to what you believe errors of the Catholic Church, but when I quote a verse that proves beyond question that your reason for leaving the Catholic Church is unbiblical, you’re down for the count.

 

[spina1953]

I appreciate your post, including your explanation of the context of what St. Paul wrote, which I wasn’t aware of.

Hi Denise 1957: You are very welcome. I thought that it might be helpful in understanding better what you posted and you made a lot of sense and hit the nail on the head so to speak.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It’s not a tradition. It’s a discipline.

No, it IS a Tradition. Capital T as well. It is a Tradition established by the Apostles not found in the Bible.

An example of a discipline would be Priest celibacy.