Where were the Protestants before the 1500's?

[clem456]

Oh yea babe. Watch me now…

 

[Dalphon]

Why did you leave the Catholic Church, Dalphon?

That’s not related to the discussion. You can contact me for that. But I think the main reason is what has already been said: corrupt leadership.

 

[Dalphon]

Don’t forget the biggie: Sunday worship.

Maybe you should ask your pastor, if he’s (or she’s) a Bible Alone advocate, why he (or she) is contradicting his own paradigm? (Or her paradigm).

Well it could be they meet on Sunday because people work all the other days of the week. Maybe if they met on Monday no one would show up.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No just common sense and a conscience. Like that old song says “He can’t even run his own life, I’ll be damned if he’ll run mine.”

Jesus promised to build one Church upon Peter, the rock, the royal steward and the shepherd of the one flock. It’s not perfect, but that is the Church that He built for you. No one in the Catholic Church had the authority to run your life.

You’re trying to justify your sin to yourself.

When they don’t change they’re saying “we accept this here.” The people who stay are accomplices. Then they say “We’re OK. People are still coming.” When people leave they say “Gee, I wonder what the problem is?”

Rubbish and you know it.

Change just wasn’t happening fast enough to suit your fancy, so you bolted. This is unbiblical.

So, why did you leave the Catholic Church, Dalphon?

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s not related to the discussion. You can contact me for that. But I think the main reason is what has already been said: corrupt leadership.

Of course it’s related. This whole thread is about you venting your spleen at the Church which you hate because of hurts you have received at the hands of someone you trusted.

Jesus addressed corruption in the Church which has been present from the very beginning. You did not put the corrupt out; you appointed yourself their judge and took the easy way by putting yourself out.

This is not what Jesus commanded us to do, and scripture proves this.

Now that your error has been pointed out to you, you need to go to confession, deal with your pain, and be reconciled to the Church.

 

[beckie_clark]

before the split it was one apostolic catholic church then calvin luther and others wanted to do what they wanted to do and started their own religion about 1500 years ago

 

[Randy_Carson]

before the split it was one apostolic catholic church then calvin luther and others wanted to do what they wanted to do and started their own religion about 1500 years ago

Largely correct, Beckie.

The Orthodox split off in 1400’s, and Protestants would argue that they didn’t really start a new religion, per se, but you’re on the right track.

Thanks!

 

[Porknpie]

Twist and turn . On one hand when scripture says all have sinned you say well it is just an expression with exceptions, as in Mary.

Behhur,

Which do you believe from Matthew 3:

A) (Literal interpretation) “all” of Judea came out to see John as well as “all” of those along the Jordan?

B) (not so literal…twist and turning this verse) and believe that not all went to see him as scripture says?

4 Now John wore clothing of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then the people of Jerusalem and all Judea were going out to him, and all the region along the Jordan, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Being consistent with “all have sinned”, I assume you hold to A) above. That every man, woman, child and infant went to see John.

 

[Dalphon]

before the split it was one apostolic catholic church then calvin luther and others wanted to do what they wanted to do and started their own religion about 1500 years ago

newsok.com/christian-coptic-church-arose-from-oriental-orthodox-split-in-451/article/3207549

“Most Americans are aware of the split in Christianity caused by the Reformation led by Martin Luther and his contemporaries in the 1500s. Many also know Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians split over various issues in 1054. Few, however, are familiar with events in 451 that caused the Oriental Orthodox and the rest of Christianity to divide.”

 

[Dalphon]

Of course it’s related. This whole thread is about you venting your spleen at the Church which you hate because of hurts you have received at the hands of someone you trusted.

Jesus addressed corruption in the Church which has been present from the very beginning. You did not put the corrupt out; you appointed yourself their judge and took the easy way by putting yourself out.

This is not what Jesus commanded us to do, and scripture proves this.

Now that your error has been pointed out to you, you need to go to confession, deal with your pain, and be reconciled to the Church.

Is Randy Carson your real name or is this Dr. Phil?

 

[Dalphon]

Change just wasn’t happening fast enough to suit your fancy, so you bolted. This is unbiblical.

You mean I should have waited longer than 50 years?

Unbiblical?

Douay-Rheims Bible
Qualifications for Overseers

1 Timothy 3:1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. 5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? 6 Not a neophyte: lest being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

**Peter giving advice to the church. Church leaders should also submit to the authority of the civil law. **
Douay-Rheims Bible
1 Peter 2:13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God’s sake: whether it be to the king as excelling; 14 **Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, **and for the praise of the good: 15 For so is the will of God, that by doing well you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not as making liberty a cloak for malice, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

 

[benhur]

ALL-

You can continue this rambling thread if you like, but there are so many topics on the table that nothing is really being accomplished. However, if you want to make real headway with our non-Catholic guest, I encourage you to focus on one issue and one issue only:

Why did Dalphon leave the Catholic Church?

He wrote:

Folks, Jesus told his followers that they MUST obey the religious leaders because their authority was legitimate. Dalphon has done the opposite, and this is clearly unbiblical.

So, unless everyone is just having fun sparring in the ring while Dalphon dances from one topic to another never bothering to follow a single argument to its logical conclusion, I suggest we focus on this one issue:

Why is Dalphon disobeying Jesus by basing *his *decision to leave the Catholic Church because of what Catholic leaders have done instead of on the theologically sound things that those leaders say?

Truth is authoritative. Those in Moses Seat (religious leaders) are to be obeyed in so far as they stick to the text (Truth/Law). Moses righteously judged according to the Law that he received from the hand of God, and not on any tradition like eventual successors. Peter did not obey religious leaders, even Moses seat , when those leaders were wrong such as when they ordered not to preach Jesus. Authority is legitimate only in so far as they are correct. Vietnam and WW II atrocities happened because good people forgot this and just " followed orders". We are individually responsible for our right action even if it against the legitimate established authority. Christianity began in just such a demand.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is Randy Carson your real name or is this Dr. Phil?

Dodge.:coffeeread:

 

[benhur]

Behhur,

Which do you believe from Matthew 3:

A) (Literal interpretation) “all” of Judea came out to see John as well as “all” of those along the Jordan?

B) (not so literal…twist and turning this verse) and believe that not all went to see him as scripture says?

4 Now John wore clothing of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then the people of Jerusalem and all Judea were going out to him, and all the region along the Jordan, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Being consistent with “all have sinned”, I assume you hold to A) above. That every man, woman, child and infant went to see John.

I think he is not talking of all the people but from all the region . Not everyone went but the news went everywhere as in all of Judea. That is a big deal cause they had no Twitter/Facebook…But I agree there may be figurative speech to discern at all times, such as “eat my flesh”.

 

[benhur]

Also, benhur, what answer will you give to the atheist who says, “How can you be a follower of Christianity, which proclaims that even little babies have sinned? For your Bible says that ALL have sinned, right?”

You will have to answer, sadly, “Yes, my interpretation of Scripture does believe that ALL have sinned means NO EXCEPTIONS. And that means that this little guy has sinned, according to my church:”

pickcute.com

No wonder the atheist will not be amenable to exploring Christianity.

If there is no sin in babies then why did Mary have to be immaculate at her own conception, as in a split second old baby in the womb ??? Maybe I do believe in the IC for we all are.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You mean I should have waited longer than 50 years?

If necessary.

And note well that here you make another attempt at justifying why you left the Church.

Unbiblical?

Douay-Rheims Bible
Qualifications for Overseers

1 Timothy 3:1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. 5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? 6 Not a neophyte: lest being puffed up with pride, he fall into the judgment of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony of them who are without: lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Have any Catholic priests or bishops that you know of done a poor job of caring for their wives and children? There are a few married priests, but that’s not really the issue, is it?

Peter giving advice to the church. Church leaders should also submit to the authority of the civil law.****
Douay-Rheims Bible
1 Peter 2:13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God’s sake: whether it be to the king as excelling; 14 **Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, **and for the praise of the good: 15 For so is the will of God, that by doing well you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not as making liberty a cloak for malice, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Ah…so, it was the priesthood scandal?

 

[Nanotwerp]

I think he is not talking of all the people but from all the region . Not everyone went but the news went everywhere as in all of Judea. That is a big deal cause they had no Twitter/Facebook…But I agree there may be figurative speech to discern at all times, such as “eat my flesh”.

It isn’t a ‘figure of speech’. You seem to have ignored and dismissed the quote I sent you from Ignatius of Antioch, since you have the fear of your denomination being improper. You seem to be in a bit of a block with Tradition and Early Church history, to be honest. Why was it that the early Christians believed in the non-figurative interpretation of the Eucharist, while you don’t? Why do you dismiss these early Christians so easily?

On a different note, what are your opinions on abortion, contraception, and homosexual acts?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Truth is authoritative. Those in Moses Seat (religious leaders) are to be obeyed in so far as they stick to the text (Truth/Law). Moses righteously judged according to the Law that he received from the hand of God, and not on any tradition like eventual successors. Peter did not obey religious leaders, even Moses seat , when those leaders were wrong such as when they ordered not to preach Jesus. Authority is legitimate only in so far as they are correct. Vietnam and WW II atrocities happened because good people forgot this and just " followed orders". We are individually responsible for our right action even if it against the legitimate established authority. Christianity began in just such a demand.

Peter was obedient to Jesus who authority superceded that of the Pharisees, and as a result of Peter’s appointment as the Royal Steward (see my active thread on this very topic), Peter’s OWN authority as God’s representative exceeded that of the Jewish rulers.

The burden is on those who claim that the Catholic leadership has taught error in matters of faith and morals.

Absent such proof, there is no justification for leaving the Church which teaches truth revealed by God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think he is not talking of all the people but from all the region . Not everyone went but the news went everywhere as in all of Judea. That is a big deal cause they had no Twitter/Facebook…But I agree there may be figurative speech to discern at all times, such as “eat my flesh”.

Cute. And wrong.

So, not “all” of the region - not every single man, woman, and child - went out to see John.

So much for the argument that “all” have sinned.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If there is no sin in babies then why did Mary have to be immaculate at her own conception, as in a split second old baby in the womb ??? Maybe I do believe in the IC for we all are.

Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin AND she did not commit a personal sin during the course of her entire life. God saved her - in advance - in order that she might be a fit dwelling for the unborn child as well as a great mom for the young boy as he grew up.