Where would The Catholic Church be at today without the SSPX?

[palmas85]

Let’s not forget about the “Agatha Christie Indult” and others who around the world both supported the preservation of the older rites, while remaining within communion with the local Ordinary and Holy See. While I believe that with or without the SSPX, the old rites would have survived by God’s grace. I also believe from the conversations I’ve had with many priests both those who offer the New and Old Rites, who were ordained before 1965, that there were many priests who offered the Mass by rote. I’ve spoken to priest (even in the SSPX) who had competitions to see who could say Mass the fastest, and know/knew a few who would sneak out and smoke a cigarette during the Gloria, at a Solemn Mass. So the liturgical wasteland that some have imposed over the past 40 years may in fact revived a Rite and Church that was (as it has over 2000 years) had periods of great faith, and times of spiritual sloth. Cooperating with God’s grace, I think (hope and pray) the resurgence of interest in rediscovering the old rites, will bring a true springtime of faith, and will have a beneficial influence on the new rites too.

As far as offering the Mass by rote would you agree that more than a few Priests celebrating the Ordinary Rite are also guilty of this? Or is there something in the Ordinary Rite that keeps the Priests focused whereas the Traditional Mass could not?

Just so you know, the subject of competitions to see who could say Masses fastest was first brought up by Martin Luther and is a favorite of those who don’t particularly care for the Traditional Mass. And, I was an altar boy for a lot of years and served at a lot of Masses. I never saw a Priest race off to grab a smoke at a Solemn Mass or any other Mass for that matter…

Sorry, but I never did.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

If I am not mistaken, Una Voce is a lay organization, correct? How could they have celebrated it, taught it or kept it going? They may have kept interest in it alive to a small degree amongst the laity and that is highly debatable, but what about the Priesthood? T Remember there was no internet so getting the message out would have been and apparently was quite difficult. I personally never even heard of them until around the time of the indult and I was pretty active in trying to find Traditional Masses in those days. The Church certainly didn’t advertise the fact that a lay organization such as Una Voce existed. The fact remains there would have been none or very few qualified priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass were it not for the SSPX. In fact, many if not most of the first priests that celebrated the Traditional Mass after the indult were SSPX Priests, former SSPX Priests and older Priests brought out of retirement. Precious few new Priests were involved at all.

The fact is you needed a religious group dedicated to the preservation of the Traditional Mass and at the time the SSPX was it.

Of course having a lay organization such as Una Voce does dovetail with some of the stated views of Vatican II that more lay participation was needed.

I’ll have to do more research tomorrow but it’s way to late for that right now. (It’s 12:30 here and 6:00 comes early )

 

[Filioque]

WUnhile Una Voce is a lay group, it encouraged the preservation of the Liturgy, offered support to priests who wished to celebrate the old rites, sometimes paying for air travel to places where they could celebrate, hounding bishops who needed an extra nudge, preserving and initiating educational information for priests who either had forgotten the rubrics or never learned them.

Una Voce sponsored conferences and seminars at which priests as well as well educated laymen spoke not just on the liturgy, but how to organize, and who to contact at the Vatican when resistance was strong. Unlike the SSPX who were branded as schismatics, and could not advertize in Catholic Newspapers, or parishes, Una Voce, while still having resistance to their existance, was able to do so in some places. Just as the Agatha Chrisie Indult in 1971 was able to get a wider application of the old rites in England, Una Voce offered moral support, finacial support, and most importantly prayers for priests old and young who wished to continue to use the 1962 Missal.

We all share in the priesthood of Christ by the virtue of our baptism, (not of course the sacerdotal priesthood) so laymen and women are an intregal part of the Church. Una Voce is living proof that the Church is not just a museum, nor is it a “hotel for Saints” but a true Hospital for Sinners in this world. It is not always the doctors who run the hospital, but those we don’t see, who work through the night, and who mop the floors, who clean the bedpans who can effect the most important part of healing.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Amen, Filioque.

 

[pnewton]

I just find it amusing that there are some members of The Church…with the ability to see everything that has happened in the last 40 years, in conjunction with the things going on today…and with a straight face and clear conscious say that there is no way possible that the TLM could’ve faded away into obscurity if it wasn’t for the SSPX.

Have you really met someone who says that? I checked back over and no one has said anything even remotely like that. The closest thing is are those who are sure the SSPX saved the TLM. They are the ones most adament in their mystical abilities to see speculative history. But having a vested interest does tend to alter and solidify one’s opinions.

 

[ProVobis]

Let’s not forget about the “Agatha Christie Indult” and others who around the world both supported the preservation of the older rites, while remaining within communion with the local Ordinary and Holy See. While I believe that with or without the SSPX, the old rites would have survived by God’s grace.

Wasn’t the Agatha Christie Indult permission to use the 1967 Missal in one or two countries? But it does show that even Protestants, many of whom signed the petition, acknowledged and requested the preservation of one of the Church’s best-loved treasures. But you can say that the SV’s also helped preserve the ancient Latin Mass. I don’t know if survival is the issue here, but to what degree the Latin Mass actually saved by the SSPX and others who had to stand up to Rome in order to preserve this liturgy. Almost all bishops wanted no part of the old rite and were ready to thwart all efforts to keep the old rite alive. Even the FSSP had to brave it out as second-class citizens of the Church, though they were considered to be in full communion.

 

[Boulder257]

The Apostolic Letter “Ecclesia Dei” by Pope John Paul II in 1988, which granted the indult for the Tridentine Mass, was written in response to the SSPX. It was this indult that brought the Tridentine Mass to the local parishes, after much work by those who petitioned for it and with much resistance from most bishops and parish priests. Thus, it is accurate to say that without the SSPX, there would not have been the Tridentine Mass in most parishes, especially before the Summorium Pontificum of Pope Benedict XVI.

Having fought for five years to bring the Indult to the Knoxville, TN diocese, I know whereof I speak. Even today, there are only three parishes in this diocese that offer the Mass of All Time. But we did prevail. Pray God things will get better.

It was also made explicitly clear in the same letter that the Tridentine Mass has always been allowed and practiced. It wasn’t the result of SSPX, but it was their disobedience that made it necessary for the Pope to explain that their complaints were unfounded. It should also be noted that it is NOT the Mass of all time, just the Mass of the last 500 years. History and records strongly prove that the apostles practiced differently than the Tridentine Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

They were just the big story of the traditionalist movement, not the only players in it. A far more holy example would be Una Voce who unlike the SSPX actually did remain obedient to the church from their founding onward.

The Una Voce did not say Mass. They were not even an official Church order. They are/were laymen, and in order to be on their mailing lists, you had to publicly declare that all the New Masses were valid and you couldn’t speak against the New Mass. Many, however, were also sympathetic to the SSPX cause, and UV had favorable documents about them on their website. I know all this because I was a member of the group once. They redesigned their website, unavoce.org, after the 2007 SP.

 

[ProVobis]

History and records strongly prove that the apostles practiced differently than the Tridentine Mass.

There really is no such thing as the Tridentine Mass. Yes, the 1570 Missal was different than that practiced by the Apostles but so what? The 1962 Missal was different too.

 

[Bold_Sexton]

I’ve no idea what all of this is. Would someone give me the 101 version of all this?

 

[michaeldaniels]

“Realistically, there was never a chance that the TLM would completely disappear, due to the sheer size of the Catholic Church.”

That is a quote from a previous post…I will not cite the posters name, but one can read through and find it if you would like…There are plenty of people that share that sentiment

Have you really met someone who says that? I checked back over and no one has said anything even remotely like that. The closest thing is are those who are sure the SSPX saved the TLM. They are the ones most adament in their mystical abilities to see speculative history. But having a vested interest does tend to alter and solidify one’s opinions.

 

[pnewton]

“Realistically, there was never a chance that the TLM would completely disappear, due to the sheer size of the Catholic Church.”

That is a quote from a previous post…I will not cite the posters name, but one can read through and find it if you would like…There are plenty of people that share that sentiment

I stand corrected. I missed that. I stand by what I said earlier that such sentiments are highly speculative and to use a phrase like “never a chance” is often influenced by one’s position. I picked the first option in your poll, but am as ignorant as anyone on such “what ifs”. I could see either scenario playing out.

 

[jeanannemarie]

Disobedience to the magisterium is serious and dangerous, too. Nothing wrong with preferring the traditional Mass and practices of the faith, but there are ways to keep the traditions without disobedience. Unless you live in close proximity to the SSPX, you might not be aware of all the issues. They aren’t all “pillars…” They have the same issues as those of us in good standing with Rome-clergy and laity alike. They may have meant well, but disobedience is not something to hold up for admiration.

I do not support the SSPX but they do not corner the market on disobedience.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Exactly…that is part of point I was making in a previous post…there are all sorts of lay people, groups, priest, and even bishops who are disobedient to The Church and The Pope…only difference is, for some reason they are never reprimanded…guess someone or some people just don’t have the intestinal fortitude to call these people out and do what is right…and their lack of condemnation of these people is a de-facto endorsement of their actions, which emboldens them. To me, they are a much greater evil and destructive force than the SSPX could ever try to be.

I do not support the SSPX but they do not corner the market on disobedience.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

The Una Voce did not say Mass. They were not even an official Church order.

No they didn’t offer mass, but it was founded by a Bishop for the promotion and preservation of the TLM, Latin itself, traditional catholic devotion, Gregorian chant etc.

They are/were laymen, and in order to be on their mailing lists, you had to publicly declare that all the New Masses were valid and you couldn’t speak against the New Mass.[Iggy- ]

The Novus Ordo mass was and is valid, and one oughtn’t speak against priests validly, licitly, and in good conscience offering the mass by the approved and normative missal.

Many, however, were also sympathetic to the SSPX cause, and UV had favorable documents about them on their website. I know all this because I was a member of the group once. They redesigned their website, unavoce.org, after the 2007 SP.

They can hardly be blamed for the confusion among traditionalists over SSPX. any organization for the promotion of the TLM would have had a hard time keeping those with SSPX sympathies out at the time.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Exactly…that is part of point I was making in a previous post…there are all sorts of lay people, groups, priest, and even bishops who are disobedient to The Church and The Pope…only difference is, for some reason they are never reprimanded…guess someone or some people just don’t have the intestinal fortitude to call these people out and do what is right…and their lack of condemnation of these people is a de-facto endorsement of their actions, which emboldens them. To me, they are a much greater evil and destructive force than the SSPX could ever try to be.

Both are grave evils that stand against the Church of Christ, and both must be stopped. Be it through prayer for their conversion, such meetings as are going on now between the pope and SSPX, letters to the legitimate superiors of those who abuse the liturgy or teach heresy, apologetic outreach to those who in ignorance support them, or by any other holy means to end these cancers in the body of Christ.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Eloquently written…I agree

Both are grave evils that stand against the Church of Christ, and both must be stopped. Be it through prayer for their conversion, such meetings as are going on now between the pope and SSPX, letters to the legitimate superiors of those who abuse the liturgy or teach heresy, apologetic outreach to those who in ignorance support them, or by any other holy means to end these cancers in the body of Christ.

 

[Onegin]

I defy you or anyone to show me where the TLM was abrogated.

And I defy you read my posts before responding.

I never said it was officially “abrogated” with a Capital “A”. The TLM did, however, very nearly disappear with a few rare exceptions.

 

[manualman]

I’ve no idea what all of this is. Would someone give me the 101 version of all this?

101 versions always start fights because you HAVE to oversimplify to make it short. But I’ll try anyways. At the close of the Vatican II council in the late 1960’s, changes were made to the sacred liturgy of the mass allegedly designed to reflect the changes in approach to proclaimng the gospel discussed and agreed upon in the Council. There hadn’t been significant mass changes since the Council of Trent (IIRC around the early 1600’s). In this “Novus Ordo” mass local languages are used instead of latin, the transcendent worship style of God has been modified in many ways (removal of altar rails, priest facing the congregation) allegedly to focus more on God as imminent and the laity is designed to play more of a participatory role rather than a passive attendence/observation.

In reality, the changes were in many cases hijacked by priests (and possibly some bishops) with personal agendas not in line with the Council. For a long time, it was very hard for the laity to tell which changes were actually called for and which ones were local inventions. Some downright horrible things happened at times (these are often derided as “clown masses.”). Critics were especially upset that the previous order of the mass was in most cases ordered NOT to be celebrated (the reason given being to reduce the level of confusion in the laity, though that hasn’t worked out as advertised…)

One of the bishops profoundly horrified by the changes and associated abuses started an association of priests (SSPX) that celebrated mass under the old form where they were allowed to. Upon realizing his own mortality, advancing age and the lack of bishops worldwide friendly to the old liturgy this bishop took it upon himself to ordain 4 new bishops in defiance of the Vatican’s instruction that he NOT do so. He felt it necesary to do this so that these new bishops could validly ordain new priests that would keep the old liturgy alive after he himself was gone. SSPX followers today deny this next assertion, but his actions are pretty much the definition of schism in catholicism. The SSPX is still under censor today, but the Vatican has been extending the olive branch under BXVI to try to reconcile and end the schism.

Personally, I can sympathize with the SSPX folks, but am sad to see that they’ve forgotten the catholic principle that the ends don’t justify the means. That one is a heck of a lot more important than which way the priest faces!

 

[Onegin]

.Personally, I can sympathize with the SSPX folks, but am sad to see that they’ve forgotten the catholic principle that the ends don’t justify the means. That one is a heck of a lot more important than which way the priest faces!

It’s a good thing that the thousands of years of Catholic Tradition prior to Vatican II include more than just dictating which way the Priest faces, right?