Where's the tabernacle?

[passioncrosslov]

I wonder, throughout the history of the world, has an earthly king’s throne ever placed to the side as a modification? And yet, Our Heavenly King has been lowered into corners and put away in a little room. But I guess the more important question is do we place Our Lord as Lord, King, and center of our heart and soul? If we truly love Him enough, we would know what to do.

 

[holy_roamer]

Because He is God.

Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad

Do you mind if I ask how we got from the tabernacle that God gave instructions and dimensions to build to Mosses in Exodus chapter 25, to the present day tabernacle in the churches? Apparently, some bishops are all the enthused either. Just wondering?

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[otjm]

Otjm the question to you was " would you obey that bishop?". You accused me of “slamming” bishops in another post.A bishop is only infallible when he teaches what the Church has always taught. Right? So there may be times to disobey.Do you agree?
My original point on the post was that Pope Benedict has expressed his desire to see the Tabernacles brought back into the sanctuary where they can be seen.However if is is left up to the Bishops that will never happen.

The Pope is eminently capable of telling the bishops what he wants done. He has not changed the rule as to where the tabernacle may be placed, and placing it in a chapel is well and entirely within the legitimate rules of the Church.

Part of the problem is that people have no history of the Church - tabernacles didn’t exist for about half our history - and because most people have not toured European churchs, they have no understanding that many, many of the older ones have had the tabernacle in a side chapel or area since the church was built centuries ago.

That results in people saying to themsleves “Well, it has always been on the main altar”. The fact is, it hasn’t always been so; it is just our impression due to very limited experience.

When the bishops legitimately exercise the authority of their office, an authority given to them by Christ, and are not in lockstep with every thought that the Pope has on any given matter, many wish to slam them as not following the Pope. That is a misunderstanding fo the office of the bishop. There is legitimate room within the Church for a bishop to make choices, and those who deride the bishops for exercising the authority legitimately are slamming them.

Not every decision a bishop makes is a matter of faith, morals, or required discipline.

Your comment “Ah yes, there is always an out. Leave it to the bishop” is a slam; he is exercising his legitimate authority given to him by Christ, and within the legitimate guidelines set by Rome. You don’t like it? That’s fine, as no one is asking anyone to like every decision a bishop makes. but that satement is a slam.

The issue of reverance is not an issue of where the tabernacle is placed; it is an issue of how people respond to God. Our tabernacle is placed in a chapel, we have 24 hour Perpetual Adoration, and I challenge anyone to say that we do not have a good sense of reverence in our parish. That is because of leadership which is reverant and leads in reverance, not because the tabernacle is on the main altar (which by the way is free standing, not against the wall).

 

[otjm]

Do you mind if I ask how we got from the tabernacle that God gave instructions and dimensions to build to Mosses in Exodus chapter 25, to the present day tabernacle in the churches? Apparently, some bishops are all the enthused either. Just wondering?

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There was a little gap of, say, oh, about 1500 or 2000 years of so.

 

[DustinsDad]

Do you mind if I ask how we got from the tabernacle that God gave instructions and dimensions to build to Mosses in Exodus chapter 25, to the present day tabernacle in the churches?

Quite simple really. The OT tabernacle existed as such, and was beautifully ordorned as such, because of the presence of Almighty God…

Exodus 25:8 And they shall make me a sanctuary, and I will dwell in the midst of them:

Now certainly the Lord is omnipresent - but in a special and unique way, He was present in this sanctuary, this tabernacle if you will. And as you continue to read through the following chapters, we read of the odornments, the offering of sacrifice, the offering of incense, etc…we see that this was a unique place for worship of the One True God. And that my friend is the key to understanding “how we got” from point A to point B.

With the fulfillment of everything in Christ, we see from the New Testament and from the constant teaching handed down from the Apostles, that He remains with us always…and in a special and uniqe way, in the Blessed Sacrament. He is there, really and truly present - body, blood, soul and divinity. And as such - we, like the OT folks, strive to offer the Lord his proper worship and praise. And we especially honer His Eucharistic presence - the Blessed Sacrament.

Matthew 28:18-20 and Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

John 20:32-35 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

John 20:54-55 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Matthew 26:26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body.

Mark 14:22 And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body.

Luke 22:19 And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me.

1 Corinthians 11:26-29 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

(continued…)

 

[NanaR]

In the Roman Catholic Church that I attend, the Tabernacle is in a very beautiful small chapel. The Confessional is off of this Chapel.

The chapel is on the opposite side of the Church from the Main Sanctuary with the Altar. So one thing that occured to me is that when the priest is celebrating Mass in the Vernacular, he is facing the Tabernacle as well as the congregation.

So it occured to me that this may have been a factor in the placement of the Chapel and the Tabernacle.

Another point is that while choir practice or other things might be going on in the Main Sanctuary, the Chapel is always available for prayer and meditation.

Our Church building was built after Vatican II (to replace the original Church building that burned down). I am told that the old style Latin Mass has never been celebrated (yet) in our building.

Just a thought.

Ruth

 

[DustinsDad]

(continued from above)
As a further note - and this is strictly speculation on my part - I imagine that for the first couple centuries, during the heaviest persecution of the Church, what was consecrated at Holy Mas was concumed entirely by the faithful…the heavey persecution and constant moving and hiding probably prohibited for the most part, reserving the Blessed Sacrament like we do today in the tabernacle (we wouldn’t want the enemies of the Church to get a hold of the Blessed Sacrament!!!). I would guess that it wasn’t until the Church conquered pagan Rome that tabernacles became more widespread as the Church was better able to reserve the Blessed Sacrament for public adoration.

Apparently, some bishops are all the enthused either. Just wondering?.

Dunno - I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to. I think most of the arguments is not whether the tabernacle exists, but in the proper placement of it. That being the case, we should all give our pastors at least the benifit of the doubt that they are sincere and truly faithful and just have a different opinion.

And worst case scenerio - if a pastor, someone within the Church, really has lost the faith. Well, pray for these folks whoever they may be, and don’t be too surprised that such may exist. Scripture itself tells us that…

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you.

As the DR notes explain here, “There must be also heresies”… By reason of the pride and perversity of man’s heart; not by God’s will or appointment; who nevertheless draws good out of this evil, manifesting, by that occasion, who are the good and firm Christians, and making their faith more remarkable. "

Also,

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[holy_roamer]

Sounds like you are up to speed on Tabernacles. There’s a chance that we might drive up to Gold Beach for salmon fishing this Labor Day Weekend. Anyway, according to my interpretation; the Levitical service with their tabernacle was of this World, and priests had to repeat it with the blood of calves and goats for redemption. That lasted until the time of the new covenant with Jesus. That is where I am curious about how the tabernacle jumped the gap over to Christianity?

Hebrews chapter 9 always pops up when I try to move the tabernacle across the gap.

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Hebrews 9: 27,28)

With all do respect, it follows that if Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, then the tabernacle may only be a symbolic gesture of what once happened?

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[holy_roamer]

Sounds like you are up to speed on Tabernacles. There’s a chance that we might drive up to Gold Beach for salmon fishing this Labor Day Weekend. Anyway, according to my interpretation; the Levitical service with their tabernacle was of this World, and priests had to repeat it with the blood of calves and goats for redemption. That lasted until the time of the new covenant with Jesus. That is where I am curious about how the tabernacle jumped the gap over to Christianity?

Hebrews chapter 9 always pops up when I try to move the tabernacle across the gap.

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Hebrews 9: 27,28)

With all do respect, it follows that if Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, then the tabernacle may only be a symbolic gesture of what once happened?

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Sorry, but don’t respond to that question, because Jean Anthony want me to start another thread in the Liturgy and Sacraments Section.

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[DustinsDad]

…Hebrews chapter 9 always pops up when I try to move the tabernacle across the gap.

Seems to me more a sacrifice question than a tabernacle question. But there is a connection, and it’s a reasonable question…

…“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Hebrews 9: 27,28)

With all do respect, it follows that if Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, then the tabernacle may only be a symbolic gesture of what once happened?

It appears as you take for granted that the sacrifice of Christ is over and done with and only symbolic representations of this sacrifice remain - and therein you are having the confusion about the tabernacles. For if you think the Eucharist is only symbolic, it is logical that you would assume the tabernacle to be only symbolic as well. So in looking into the first part - the sacrifice part - perhaps you will better understand the Catholic tabernacle.

Scripture will demonstrates that Christ perfectly fulfills all the OT sacrifices. This means of course the sacrifice of Malchesidek, which is as we see, is prophesied to be perpetual and universal…

Malachi 1:10-11
Who is there among you, that will shut the doors, and will kindle the fire on my altar gratis? I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand.
For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

Now quoting briefly from an article that I really strongly suggest you read…
After His resurrection, He ascended into Heaven where He appears at the Altar of God, as both our High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, and the Perfect Victim – a “Lamb as it had been slain” (Revelation 5:6). He offers the graces of His once and for all historical sacrifice to us forever, sending to us the “hidden manna” He’d promised (John 6:35, Revelation 2:17).

Melchizedek’s bread and wine (Gen 14:18), korban todah (or sacrifice of thanksgiving - Leviticus 7:11-15), korban pesach (or pascal sacrifice - Exodus 12; 24:8), the sacrifice of the red heifer (Numbers 19), the Old Testament manna (Exodus 16), Malachi’s “pure offering” (Mal 1:11) – all these sacrificial effects, gifts, and prophecies were brought together when Christ instituted the Mass at His Last Supper and then, on that same Jewish day, shed His blood for the remission of sin.

At the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Catholic priest offers that same Sacrifice to the Father, and then eats and offers to us the glorified Body of Christ in a form whose “accidents” look like bread and wine after the order of Melchizedek. Calvary is pulled out of time and re-presented before our very eyes! Read again: St. John’s Heavenly vision of our Lord, glorified and ascended, is that of a “Lamb as it had been slain” (Revelation 5:6) with an Altar (Revelation 8:3), whence He offers Himself to us in “hidden manna” (Revelation 2:17), the Eucharist. Even in Heaven, the resurrected, glorified Christ, the King of Kings, appears as a “lamb as it had been slain,” the perfect Oblation.
Alot here to take in…it’s too deep and extensive for me to give it justice here. Read this article - The Eucharist - and study the scriptural passages the author offers, and pray about it. I think you’ll enjoy pondering this one as it deals alot with the OT forshadowing of the NT - as such I think as such, it’s right up your alley

And peace in Christ!!!

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

Sorry, but don’t respond to that question, because Jean Anthony want me to start another thread in the Liturgy and Sacraments Section.

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Too late

 

[holy_roamer]

Too late

Okay, I made hard copy for future study just incase this thread get deleted. However, you did side step (Hebrews 9: 27, 28) where it says that Christ was offered once. Anyway, that’s how the Protestants look at it. Did you explain how the tabernacle jumped the gap from the Levitical service into Christianity?

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[DustinsDad]

Okay, I made hard copy for future study just incase this thread get deleted.

Very good.

However, you did side step (Hebrews 9: 27, 28) where it says that Christ was offered once.

Not at all. The protestant understanding of “past event only” doesn’t fit with the totally of scripture, it comes from kind of looking at Christ’s sacrifice is finite - limited in scope. But it doesn’t fit with all the other NT references to it’s perpetutity. Gotta read the post again - and the article especially.

I’ll try with one more thing - quoting from my Missal (Angelus Press 1962 Roman Catholic Daily Missal, pp. lii-liii)…
But above all, our Lord’s Sacrifice consists in this constant desire for His Father’s will in preference to His own; and this preference remains eternally fixed in Heaven. Suffering passes - the fact of having suffered remains.

It is the same thing for us when we renounce anything. The act of self-denial is, like all acts, temporary; but the disposition of the will to deny itself for a greater good remains just so long as we do not take it back. Death fixes us forever in the dispositions in which it finds us. Christ’s Sacrifice persists in heaven, because the legacy of His life made on the Cross has never been canceled. That which He gave was given for all time…Christ’s immolation is eternal. St. John, in his vision of Heaven, sees Jesus as “a Lamb standing upright, yet slain (as I thought) in sacrifice” (Apoc. 5:6) [Knox].

This is understandable. The purpose of our Lord’s Sacrifice having been to glorify God, the act whereby He glorifies Him must, of necessity, be eternal.

When the priest brings Christ down upon the altar, he renders Him present such as He is in Heaven; and He is in heaven with the same loving dispositions that He had on Calvary at the moment of His death.

The Mass is, therefore, not a new Sacrifice by Christ; but the same Sacrifice actualized in the present. “We know that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more” (Rom. 6:9).

The Mass is thus the perpetual prolongation of the Sacrifice made on the Cross. Consequently, every Mass is the one immolation of Christ repeated in the Act of Oblation. By the same act of the will, Jesus offers at the Last Supper His death in the future; on Calvary His death in the present; in heaven and on the altar His death in the past.

This special presence of Christ on the altar is peculiar to the Mass and demonstrates its grandeur.

When we celebrate the other mysteries of Christ’s life, we merely commemorate them. There is no real renewal of the mystery on the day devoted to it. At Christmas, the Church recalls to our minds the Savior’s birth, but this birth does not really take place – is not actualized in the present. On Ascension Thursday, our Lord does not renew His ascent into Heaven. It is quite otherwise for the Mass. It is no simple symbolic representation, for the same Sacrifice that Christ accomplished on the cross is made truly present in an unbloody manner on the altar.

Hope that helps.

Anyway, that’s how the Protestants look at it. Did you explain how the tabernacle jumped the gap from the Levitical service into Christianity?

You act as if the tabernacle was there for man and not for God - that’s kind of odd to me. Anyway - understand the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, understand the Real Presence in the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar…and you’ll understand the tabernacle. That’s the only way you’re gonna get there my friend.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

…However, you did side step (Hebrews 9: 27, 28) where it says that Christ was offered once.

Just went back and looked at this post. Specifically addressed this when quoting Malachi - notice the bolded parts…

Malachi 1:10-11
Who is there among you, that will shut the doors, and will kindle the fire on my altar gratis? I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand.
For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for "my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

This in and of itself (without anything else) renders the protestant position troublesome - for this prophesy points to Christ’s sacrifice as a perpetual and universal sacrifice (always and everywhere offered). This can be true only with the Catholic understanding - the protestant understanding would make a “clean oblation” (or pure offering" in other translations) - this pure sacrifice in *every *place impossible.

Hebrews 9:27-28 is addressed further in the article I linked to, and more even above from the Missal. Hope it helps.

Also, just the note from the Catholic DR bible also explains this -
25 "Offer himself often"… Christ shall never more offer himself in sacrifice, in that violent, painful, and bloody manner, nor can there be any occasion for it: since by that one sacrifice upon the cross, he has furnished the full ransom, redemption, and remedy for all the sins of the world. But this hinders not that he may offer himself daily in the sacred mysteries in an unbloody manner, for the daily application of that one sacrifice of redemption to our souls.
I think you may be missing that St. Paul is contrasting the one infinite Sacrifice of Christ on the cross with the continual sacrificing of animals in the OT. If the Church* believed* we were re-crucifying the Lord on the altar, you’d have a point. But we don’t. We’re re-offering that once for all sacrifice - as Christ commanded. "Do this… "

These two articles from Catholic Answers are also very good and helpful…

The Sacrifice of the Mass
The Institution of the Mass

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[anthony022071]

Beware of modernist home remodelers and interior decorators in your church.

 

[holy_roamer]

Just went back and looked at this post. Specifically addressed this when quoting Malachi - notice the bolded parts…

Malachi 1:10-11
Who is there among you, that will shut the doors, and will kindle the fire on my altar gratis? I have no pleasure in you, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will not receive a gift of your hand.
For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for "my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

This in and of itself (without anything else) renders the protestant position troublesome - for this prophesy points to Christ’s sacrifice as a perpetual and universal sacrifice (always and everywhere offered). This can be true only with the Catholic understanding - the protestant understanding would make a “clean oblation” (or pure offering" in other translations) - this pure sacrifice in *every *place impossible.

Hebrews 9:27-28 is addressed further in the article I linked to, and more even above from the Missal. Hope it helps.

Also, just the note from the Catholic DR bible also explains this -
25 "Offer himself often"… Christ shall never more offer himself in sacrifice, in that violent, painful, and bloody manner, nor can there be any occasion for it: since by that one sacrifice upon the cross, he has furnished the full ransom, redemption, and remedy for all the sins of the world. But this hinders not that he may offer himself daily in the sacred mysteries in an unbloody manner, for the daily application of that one sacrifice of redemption to our souls.
I think you may be missing that St. Paul is contrasting the one infinite Sacrifice of Christ on the cross with the continual sacrificing of animals in the OT. If the Church* believed* we were re-crucifying the Lord on the altar, you’d have a point. But we don’t. We’re re-offering that once for all sacrifice - as Christ commanded. "Do this… "

These two articles from Catholic Answers are also very good and helpful…

The Sacrifice of the Mass
The Institution of the Mass

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

Okay, thanks. You have given me plenty to read and plenty to catch-up on. As you probably have guessed, the Protestant view is much simpler and doesn’t require a lot of study.

Take a break and have a nice 3 day weekend.

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[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed due to going off topic. If you wish to discuss some of the side issues raised, please start new threads in the appropriate fora. Thank you all.