Which Catholic doctrines are currently being challenged by emerging christianity?

  • Thread starter Thread starter grannymh
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Results of CAF curiosity.

Being driven by curiosity, I have learned about different terms for “movements” whicn challenge unpopular Catholic doctrines. The term “movements” itself is debatable because often there are individuals who lean this way or that way from actual defined Catholic doctrines. It becomes difficult to trace individual comments to specific concepts such as “emerging Chrisitanity” or the mega church phenomenon, or the Catholic women priests groups.

What I have learned is that the “emerging church” concept is not familiar in all neighborhoods. In my old geographic neighborhood, a prominent Catholic wanted his parish to adapt some of the selling points of a popular mega church complex. He was not asking his parish to refrain from teaching some of the difficult Catholic doctrines.

In other words, it is neighborhood semantics which makes it difficult to recognize that the Catholic “emerging church concept” is simply wolves in sheep’s clothing.

In the reality of 2015, CAF, there is the possibility that harmonizing religious teachings where we “break bread” with eveyone does reflect a type of emerging Catholicism where the “eucharistic goal” is to be in communion with other beliefs. This is definitly a threat to Catholicism because “breaking bread” as a “communion” term" means that these emerging “wolves” are nibbling away at the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. One of the ways is the appealing proposal that all views of a Catholic doctrine are legitimate. Those of us who are old enough to have learned the protocol of the visible Catholic Church on earth know that ***before *a major ecumenical Church Council, all views of Divine Revelation are *temporarily ***considered “legimate”. It is ***during ***the Church Council that the Holy Spirit guides the formal wording of a doctrine. At that point, only one version is considered Divine Revelation.

Please note that the discarded views could have some truth within them. Those truths are found in other properly defined Catholic doctrines.
 
The “woman as priest” movement challenges the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, in the Holy Eucharist.
 
Ignatius said:
Catholic doctrines are not addressed by emerging Christianity, it’s basically a Protestant thing.
Click to expand...
Going back some years, this Catholic Center was host to an “emerging” conference.

"The conference was sponsored by Rohr’s Center for Action and Contemplation, the second of its kind, and the title suggests an expansion of the idea from last year’s conference, which bore the heading, “The Emerging Church.”
Link to article. ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/unformed-future

This is the first part of a quote from the link.
“I hope whatever emerging Christianity is,” said Franciscan Fr. Richard Rohr, a featured speaker at the conference, “it’s going to be much more practice-based than doctrine-based. Where has this obsession with believing correct doctrines gotten us?"

Ignatius, in post 143, is correct in saying “Catholic doctrines are not addressed by emerging Christianity, it’s basically a Protestant thing.” Nonetheless, some, not all, Catholics simply transfered the idea of emerging to fellowship (breaking bread with each other), to their own struggle to update Catholicism by removing the “obsession” with some doctrines. This is not a new thing in the Catholic Church. Wolves in sheep’s clothing have never taken a vacation.

Interestingly, when one studies the beginning of Humani Generis, Pius XII, 1950, one finds a similar situation in paragraphs 11-12 and following.
w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_12081950_humani-generis.html

One way to look at Catholicism and emerging Christianty is to recognize the desire of some, not all, people to remove the uniqueness of Catholicism so that everyone is a “Christian” free to accept or reject some basic doctrines. In some geographic areas, this is known as the Big Tent.
 
grannymh said:
The “woman as priest” movement challenges the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, in the Holy Eucharist.
Click to expand...
I don’t understand why that would be so…:o
 
simpleas said:
I don’t understand why that would be so…:o
Click to expand...
May I suggest looking at the big picture of both female and male entrance into heaven. Salvation is not separated by sex. By concentrating on equal male and female powers in the Catholic priesthood, it is easy to overlook the Divine power to give us the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. This Divine power does not harm females because females will always have the privilege of chosing a personal relationship with our Creator.
 
grannymh said:
The “woman as priest” movement challenges the Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, in the Holy Eucharist.
Click to expand...
It is essential for Catholics to take the time to search out the relationships (plural intended) between Catholic doctrines. For example. The Sacrament of Holy Orders is directed towards the salvation of others. (CCC 1534) Through the ordained ministry of priests, the presence of Christ is made visible in the midst of the community of believers. (CCC 1549) This sacred Sacrament configures the recipient so that he may serve as a representative of Christ. (CCC 1581) This sacred power is meant for the service of the faithful. (CCC 1592)

By virture of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, the recipient acts in persona Christi Capitis. (*CCC *1548-1551) This is the means by which bread and wine are consecrated into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. (Matthew 26: 26-28) This is the only means for the Sacrament of the Eucahrsit.

By challenging the Sacrament of Holy Orders, the “woman as priest” concept challenges the validity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass by confusing human powers and Divine powers. Consecration during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass happens because of the Divine power of the Holy Spirit. It is not a human power indiscriminately given to all humans, female and male.

The male priesthood does not take away the human power of females to freely choose obedience to their Creator (*CCC *1730-1732). Thus, equality with select individual men, based on the Sacrament of Holy Orders and the Sacrament of the Eucharist, is not essential for female salvation. This is the simple reason why there is no real logical reason for challenging the Sacrament of Holy Orders and the in persona Christi in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
 
grannymh said:
May I suggest looking at the big picture of both female and male entrance into heaven. Salvation is not separated by sex. By concentrating on equal male and female powers in the Catholic priesthood, it is easy to overlook the Divine power to give us the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. This Divine power does not harm females because females will always have the privilege of chosing a personal relationship with our Creator.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

So what it means is only a male can be givin the “power” to give us the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Yet we are equal in the “eyes” of God…🤷

I think our spiritual soul can “see” there is no difference between male and female, that we are one, but our human tendencies see us completely differently.
That is why I struggle with that idea of only a male priesthood, or even deacons. Male and female can serve God, and are one with him.

Yes anyone can have a personal relationship with God, no one, male or female gives it to them, only God. 👍
 
simpleas said:
Thanks.

So what it means is only a male can be givin the “power” to give us the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Yet we are equal in the “eyes” of God…🤷

I think our spiritual soul can “see” there is no difference between male and female, that we are one, but our human tendencies see us completely differently.
That is why I struggle with that idea of only a male priesthood, or even deacons. Male and female can serve God, and are one with him.

Yes anyone can have a personal relationship with God, no one, male or female gives it to them, only God. 👍
Click to expand...
Equal means that both women and men are referred to in *CCC *356 and CCC 1730-1732.

The equality of women and men in the "eyes"of God is based on Genesis 1: 26-27 and not on job descriptions.

The human struggle over a male priesthood is a distraction which challenges the validity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because it denies the Sacrament of Holy Orders which only men can receive. Both the Sacrament of the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Holy Orders are more than an individual relationship with God. They are part of God’s ministry of salvation.
 
grannymh said:
Equal means that both women and men are referred to in *CCC *356 and CCC 1730-1732.

The equality of women and men in the "eyes"of God is based on Genesis 1: 26-27 and not on job descriptions.

The human struggle over a male priesthood is a distraction which challenges the validity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because it denies the Sacrament of Holy Orders which only men can receive. Both the Sacrament of the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Holy Orders are more than an individual relationship with God. They are part of God’s ministry of salvation.
Click to expand...
But it doesn’t deny men the sacrament of holy orders, it would allow women the sacrament of holy orders along side men, with men, not opposed to men.

The ccc quotes do not explain why men only can receive the power to make Christ present in the Eucharist.
Yes Gen 1 26-27 says God makes male and female in his image, both are equal to the creator, just not to humans.
 
simpleas said:
But it doesn’t deny men the sacrament of holy orders, it would allow women the sacrament of holy orders along side men, with men, not opposed to men.

The ccc quotes do not explain why men only can receive the power to make Christ present in the Eucharist.
Yes Gen 1 26-27 says God makes male and female in his image, both are equal to the creator, just not to humans.
Click to expand...
I can understand that you are coming from a “modern” position and are interested in women’s rights etc.

What is interesting about the **right **to the Sacrament of Holy Orders is this first sentence from *CCC *1578. I put the first two words in bold. – "No one has a right to receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders."

For the moment, I suggest studying this passage from St. Paul. 1 Corinthians 12: 12-22.

Then I suggest studying the actions of Jesus Christ and His followers. Please consider these passages.
Hebrews 4: 14; Hebrews 5: 1-10; Mark 3: 14-19; Luke 6: 12-16; Titus 1: 5-9.

We cannot deny that Jesus is the First Priest at the Last Supper. Luke 22: 19-20.
The tradition of male priests is firmly in place. 1 Corinthians 11: 23-26.

As a master of words, St. Paul describes Christ’s Mystical Body. If an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? 1 Corinthians 12: 12-22.

Jesus chose to assume the male human nature. Should we critisize Him for this?. Should we demand that women act as priests when the First Priest chose men? Who are we to tell Jesus that He did it wrong?

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. The section on the Sacrament of Holy Orders begins with paragraph 1536. Footnotes and cross-references in the margins should be read.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
grannymh said:
I can understand that you are coming from a “modern” position and are interested in women’s rights etc.

What is interesting about the **right **to the Sacrament of Holy Orders is this first sentence from *CCC *1578. I put the first two words in bold. – "No one has a right to receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders."

For the moment, I suggest studying this passage from St. Paul. 1 Corinthians 12: 12-22.

Then I suggest studying the actions of Jesus Christ and His followers. Please consider these passages.
Hebrews 4: 14; Hebrews 5: 1-10; Mark 3: 14-19; Luke 6: 12-16; Titus 1: 5-9.

We cannot deny that Jesus is the First Priest at the Last Supper. Luke 22: 19-20.
The tradition of male priests is firmly in place. 1 Corinthians 11: 23-26.

As a master of words, St. Paul describes Christ’s Mystical Body. If an ear should say, “Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body,” it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? 1 Corinthians 12: 12-22.

Jesus chose to assume the male human nature. Should we critisize Him for this?. Should we demand that women act as priests when the First Priest chose men? Who are we to tell Jesus that He did it wrong?

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. The section on the Sacrament of Holy Orders begins with paragraph 1536. Footnotes and cross-references in the margins should be read.

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Click to expand...
It’s not about womens rights as in women holding the same job positions as men, or being paid equal to men for doing the same job. It’s about the teaching that only men can be ordained to “bring us all” to God.
There are many other religions in the world that do not see women in the same light as men, because for some reason men in their religion are highly placed and women have little or no say to how teaching their faith can be accomplished.
Some of that is in ours too, although I believe it would have been seen differently in the early church, and I know our church has progressed over the years.

I also know noone has the right to be ordained, not all men make it to ordaination, but it’s denied to women, because of the tradition of the church, not an actual command from God.

I don’t think we should critise Jesus for anything.

I will look at your suggestions later, I’m learning never to close my mind off to anything.

Thanks.
 
simpleas said:
It’s not about womens rights as in women holding the same job positions as men, or being paid equal to men for doing the same job. It’s about the teaching that only men can be ordained to “bring us all” to God.
Click to expand...
Pardon me. All of us are already ordained to “bring us all” to God. We are the Mystical Body of Christ. Women are not excluded.🙂

:eek: After years of wondering why some, not all, Catholic women do not understand the Sacrament of Holy Orders, I now wonder if t these women tried to understand St. Paul’s teachings on the Mystical Body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12: 12-22.
 
grannymh said:
Pardon me. All of us are already ordained to “bring us all” to God. We are the Mystical Body of Christ. Women are not excluded.🙂

:eek: After years of wondering why some, not all, Catholic women do not understand the Sacrament of Holy Orders, I now wonder if t these women tried to understand St. Paul’s teachings on the Mystical Body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12: 12-22.
Click to expand...
What I meant was administering the sacraments, and women are excluded from this.(I mean consecration. not extra ordainary ministers etc)

1 Cor 12 : 12-22 I think actually may prove the point that women would be able to act as priests.
I read somewhere only today that women make up a higher percentage of active membership in the church than men, (nuns out number priests now).

But I suppose that does not matter, the real issue seems to lie in authority.

Some of the women I have heard speak on the issue are very sincere and know much about the history of the church.

(haven’t yet looked at your links)
 
grannymh said:
Pardon me. All of us are already ordained to “bring us all” to God. We are the Mystical Body of Christ. Women are not excluded.🙂

:eek: After years of wondering why some, not all, Catholic women do not understand the Sacrament of Holy Orders, I now wonder if t these women tried to understand St. Paul’s teachings on the Mystical Body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12: 12-22.
Click to expand...
Granny, Simpleas doesn’t appear to care about Catholic Doctrine, he is right and The Church is wrong. There is no argument that you can make that will dissuade him from his secularist point of view. You may be wasting your time on him.
 
Looking at Scripture and the Tradition which follows the Last Supper, there is a simple choice regarding how the Sacrament of Holy Orders operates.

One can choose the guidance of the promised Holy Spirit, Chapter 14, Gospel of John, or one can choose the guidance of a few Catholics who want to assume, for themselves, the power of God in the changing of bread and wine into the Mystery of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ.

The demands of a few Catholics who believe that their wisdon surpasses the wisdom of the First Priest, Jesus Christ Who gave us Himself, are simply powerless empty demands. One can choose the false hope of the few who want to change, to their liking, the Catholic Church from within. Or one can remain faithful and reject the “current fruit” of Satan.
 
Thankyou Grannymh for the Bible references, I have read through them, and can see where some will take that Jesus meant only males to teach, be ordained etc, as most reference is made to men, or man.
What I wonder is, regarding the word man or men, did we at one time think that the words were for the male only? We say that the apostles and even Christ himself would have been referring to women also, so that we are talking about both males and females as children of God, together and not separate.

Take for instance Titus 1 : 5-9, Paul talks of appointing elders and list’s what the man should and shouldn’t be, and by man he means male only because he uses* he* in his preference. Yet man can be either male or female, or else women would get off scot free from being sinners!(or aleast in some cases!)

I don’t know if I have explained that well enough, it may sound like nit picking, but it is a honest question.
I know Paul points out what older women should behave like, and so is refering to females. (although why he says behave as though they were religious is strange)

Our church says it is guided by the Holy Spirit, and I would think it is still being guided by the Holy Spirit, because we are all still here, it hasn’t stopped guiding. But when the thoughts, talks and actions about women progressing within the church are suggested, it becomes satans works, rather than perhaps the Holy Spirit, who is in charge.
How do we know it is not the Holy Spirit prompting change in tiny steps? None of us humans male or female can say we know what way our Church should progress or else we put in in a box marked “Final, no progress to be made” 😃

I did read on a non Catholic site, that the reason women should never have spritiual authority over men was because Eve was deceived, so they believe women are incapable of making good spiritual decisions for men :eek: So that would explain why men should be the spiritual leaders.
Unsure if this could be part of the reason, along side the idea that Jesus choose only males for spiritual teaching for our church too.

Thanks.
 
Ignatius said:
Granny, Simpleas doesn’t appear to care about Catholic Doctrine, he is right and The Church is wrong. There is no argument that you can make that will dissuade him from his secularist point of view. You may be wasting your time on him.
Click to expand...
Please show me where I said I was right and the Church is wrong? This thread is to discuss doctrines that are challenged. That is what I am discussing, I thought that was the point of the thread 🤷

Thanks for putting words into my mouth :rolleyes:
 
simpleas said:
This says alot to me :

“I hope whatever emerging Christianity is,” said Franciscan Fr. Richard Rohr, a featured speaker at the conference, “it’s going to be much more practice-based than doctrine-based. Where has this obsession with believing correct doctrines gotten us? The Roman church is right back into it, although maybe that’s why God is humiliating us, to say: ‘This obsession with being right and having the whole truth, look where it’s gotten you, Roman church,’ ” he said in a not-so-thinly veiled reference to the then-breaking story that the shadow of the clergy sex abuse scandal had darkened the door of the papal palace. “It might well be in the great scheme of God’s grace the only way to bring us to humility, to balancing all of our absolutely certain knowing with a necessary unknowing.”

And this from

catholicnewsagency.com/news/are-you-catholic-then-stay-in-the-church-pope-says-12769/

“Jesus prays, Jesus calls, Jesus chooses, Jesus sends his disciples out, Jesus heals the crowd. Inside this temple, this Jesus who is the corner stone does all this work: it is He who conducts the Church,” the pontiff noted, explaining that the Church is built on the apostles.

To me, I think that while the church is built on the apostles, it now has to continue with the people of today, not to say we shouldn’t practise doctrines etc, but there is a need to show just why some are very important, maybe the ones that people don’t take as seriously as they did 30-40 years ago.
Click to expand...
TILT!

Can we say “major league false dichotomy”???

I knew you could.
 
simpleas #156
It’s about the teaching that only men can be ordained to “bring us all” to God.
……it’s denied to women, because of the tradition of the church, not an actual command from God.
Click to expand...
The command from the Christ the Son of God is crystal clear:
“he that hears you hears Me” (Lk 10:16), and to His chosen Supreme Vicar St Peter: “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19).

So when you doubt, or challenge a doctrine of the Church, you doubt and challenge God.

Mediator Dei
“40. Only to the apostles, and thenceforth to those on whom their successors have imposed hands, is granted the power of the priesthood, in virtue of which they represent the person of Jesus Christ before their people, acting at the same time as representatives of their people before God. This priesthood is not transmitted by heredity or human descent. It does not emanate from the Christian community. It is not a delegation from the people.”
Pope PIUS XII 1947
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

Pope St John Paul II’s Apostolic Epistle Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, 1994 confirms the male-only priesthood as instituted by Christ Himself by an infallible declaration:
** ‘Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.’**

No real Catholic can doubt this doctrine without grave error.

Women and the Catholic Priesthood
By Monica Migliorino Miller Wednesday, September 26, 2007,
Monica Migliorino Miller, Ph.D., is associate professor of sacred theology at St. Mary’s College of Madonna University, Orchard Lake, Michigan, and author of Sexuality and Authority in the Catholic Church.
Extracts:
As a Catholic, theologian, and university professor, I know that many Catholics continue to reject Catholic teaching on the all-male priesthood and certainly cannot articulate the Church’s reasons for the teaching, much less defend it.

*The Catholic Priesthood and Women *is a defense and an interpretation of the Church’s doctrine. It attempts to provide a new generation of young Catholics and, most especially, seminarians with an understanding of the Church’s teaching and give them a “theological orientation to the topic that engages the chief objections.” Its author, Sister Sara Butler, MSBT, is a well-respected theologian who taught at Mundelein Seminary and currently holds a position at St. Joseph’s Seminary in Dunwoodie, New York. She openly confesses in the book’s introduction that for many years she supported the ordination of women. She credits John Paul II’s “theology of the body” and “his response to the feminist critique in the apostolic letter *Mulieris Dignitatem *(1988)” for her change of heart on this matter.

Butler believes that those who advocate for women in the priesthood are too preoccupied with the theological arguments and do not sufficiently appreciate or understand the “fundamental reasons” for the Church’s position.

The theology of an all-male priesthood has to do with the complementary/nuptial meaning of human sexuality and Christ’s masculine identity as bridegroom to the Churc – a marital I/Thou relation that forms the very order of the covenant of salvation itself.
As important as the fundamental reasons are for the all-male priesthood, these reasons must be doctrinally based on something. In the chapter that deals specifically with these reasons, Butler recognizes that doctrinally the male gender of Christ and the Apostles “is not arbitrary, but significant.” Thus a close connection does exist between the fundamental reasons or Church doctrine and the theological reasons. I would argue that, indeed, the doctrine and the theology overlap and begin to merge into one another. This merger is rooted in the fact that the priest acts* in persona Christi.* This is not simply a theological argument. It is the doctrine of the Church. Acting in the person of Christ means to act in his role as head to the Church. Eucharistically, Christ cannot simply be identified with the Church. He is the head that causes the being of the Church. Christ’s gender is a sign of his headship – his masculinity is a sign of his difference-in-relation to his people.

Catholics need to be well informed on the subject of this book if they are to offer a reasoned defense to a world that fails to appreciate sexual differences, much less the sacramental significance of those differences.
firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2007/09/women-and-the-catholic-priesth
#161
it is a honest question.
Click to expand...
No longer can such fiction be held, as the reality of the doctrine from Christ’s Own Magisterium is crystal clear and final.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top