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Montalban
Guest
So you’re saying Islam’s view of Christ comes from the Jews?
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Montalban
Guest
Restore Israel?
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Johenz
Guest
Based on Islam’s view of Jesus as a great prophet, but merely a mortal man, it would seem to me that Waraqa was more of an Arian than a Nestorian.
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KofC660
Guest
Exactly.
The Mohammedans are simply followers of the Arian heresy, mixed with A LOT of leftover Hebrewism after the destruction of the Temple, and spiced with some old fashioned paganism of the desert nomads.
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Montalban
Guest
They even believe in a weird Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Mother (Mary)!
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Kadaveri
Guest
I don’t remember where all the Ahadith about the Jews coming to Jerusalem are Exo, but it’s a common recurrence among prophecies of the Mahdi that there seems to be a large community of Jews in Jerusalem when he arrives (when the Prophet was alive there were no Jews there they’d been banned from the city by the Byzantines). An example I found:
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“It is at the hands of the Mahdi that the Ark of the Covenant will be brought from Lake Tiberias and will be carried and placed before him in Jerusalem. When the Jews see it, they will become Muslim except for a few of them.”*
And the taking of the Kingdom of God from the Jews wasn’t to the Arabs, but to the Gentiles (i.e. Muslims) in general because of their rejection of their Messiah, Jesus (as) is reported as saying this would happen if the Jews did not believe in him quite a few times infact, Matthew 21:43 for example. This is what the Prophet Muhammad’s Night Journey was all about and why he was taken to Jerusalem, and soon after he left Mecca for Medina, and the direction of prayer was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, it symbolises the final taking of the Kingdom of God from the Jews (Jerusalem) and it being given to the Gentiles (the establishment of the new Kingdom at Medina).
There are also several Ahadith however noting that at the time most of the Jews accept Islam upon the Mahdi returning the Ark of the Covenant, Medina will be abandoned and the Kingdom will be established at Jerusalem once more; which again symbolises that after the Jews accept Islam (and therefore, Jesus (as), and Muhammad (as)), they shall return to being in God’s favour. This all leading the way for Christ’s return, who also said in Matthew 23:39 that the Jews would not see him again till they believed in him.
Montalban:
Montalban:
Johenz:
Montalban:
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“It is at the hands of the Mahdi that the Ark of the Covenant will be brought from Lake Tiberias and will be carried and placed before him in Jerusalem. When the Jews see it, they will become Muslim except for a few of them.”*
And the taking of the Kingdom of God from the Jews wasn’t to the Arabs, but to the Gentiles (i.e. Muslims) in general because of their rejection of their Messiah, Jesus (as) is reported as saying this would happen if the Jews did not believe in him quite a few times infact, Matthew 21:43 for example. This is what the Prophet Muhammad’s Night Journey was all about and why he was taken to Jerusalem, and soon after he left Mecca for Medina, and the direction of prayer was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, it symbolises the final taking of the Kingdom of God from the Jews (Jerusalem) and it being given to the Gentiles (the establishment of the new Kingdom at Medina).
There are also several Ahadith however noting that at the time most of the Jews accept Islam upon the Mahdi returning the Ark of the Covenant, Medina will be abandoned and the Kingdom will be established at Jerusalem once more; which again symbolises that after the Jews accept Islam (and therefore, Jesus (as), and Muhammad (as)), they shall return to being in God’s favour. This all leading the way for Christ’s return, who also said in Matthew 23:39 that the Jews would not see him again till they believed in him.
No, if you read my posts in this thread you’d see I meant Islam and the Jews’ interpretation of what the Messiah will be comes from the same source, hence being almost identical.
Well, restore the Kingdom of God; as well as rebuild Solomon’s Temple with the renewed Ark of the Covenant, defeat the Anti-Christ in war and abolish all religions but Islam.
Waraqa was a Nestorian, he was not an Arian. There were no Arians anywhere near Arabia in the Prophet’s time, infact the only place they still existed was in what is now modern day Germany so Arianism could hardly have been an influence on him. Besides, Arianism doesn’t view Jesus (as) anything like Islam views him anyway, they view Jesus (as) as divine and pre-existed humanity for one thing.
Please don’t take the thread off-topic with such hit and run remarks, I’ve refuted such claims in THIS thread as well as others on this forum before. If you take issue with it then take it there and we’ll discuss it.
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exoflare
Guest
Kadaveri,
Putting aside the rest of your response for the time being… If you believe that the book of Matthew must be “corrupted” then stop trying to use it as evidence for what you claim. This really makes no sense. You seem to just want it both ways.
Putting aside the rest of your response for the time being… If you believe that the book of Matthew must be “corrupted” then stop trying to use it as evidence for what you claim. This really makes no sense. You seem to just want it both ways.
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exoflare
Guest
btw, I’m not sure but isn’t the “Mahdi” a purely Shiite role?
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Kadaveri
Guest
There’s no reason why I can’t quote the Gospel of Matthew just because I don’t consider the author to have been inspired by God, I still consider it valuable. I only referenced it as a matter of interest anyway.
The Mahdi isn’t a purely Shi’a role, they just exaggerate his importance (at least from a Sunni perspective).
The Mahdi isn’t a purely Shi’a role, they just exaggerate his importance (at least from a Sunni perspective).
T
The_Truthinator
Guest
“They will in those days no longer say, “The ark of the covenant of the LORD!” They will no longer think of it, or remember it, or miss it, or make another. At that time they will call Jerusalem the LORD’S throne; there all nations will be gathered together to honor the name of the LORD at Jerusalem, and they will walk no longer in their hardhearted wickedness.”–Jer. 3:16-17
It seems like, just from a quick glimpse of this passage (I admit, I haven’t done any “in-depth” research on it yet) that Yahweh (most holy, most revered) is, in essence saying here, that the ark shall no longer be of any value to the people, but rather “Jerusalem” shall take its place as the Mercy Seat, or Throne, of the Lord. Whether this “Jerusalem” is speaking of the physical city where the Holy of Holies once was, or of a spiritual, new Jerusalem, is unclear. It seems to me, however, that the latter is more likely: In either case he promises his People that they will witness a time when the once sacred object is merely a relic. This prophecy could undoubtedly be referring to an event in the Second Coming, but most Christians will be quick to note that even if that IS the case, it seems odd that, if so, the physical Jerusalem is the center of attention once more, as it would almost be viewed as a step backwards in regards to redemptive history. Rather, to me in my ignorance, infinite in itself, it seems that these words should be taken to reference the Church, the New Jerusalem, for wherever the Holy Church of God is, there he is, indwelling in the hearts of his People. Therefore the Church of Christ is easily understood as the fulfillment of this sacred utterance. (Nevertheless, as it speaks of all people coming to worship at “Jerusalem” it might also be suggested that this passage indeed refers to the Church, yet in the days of Christ’s Reign, after he is come again, when all nations shall acknowledge the holy, blameless, glorious God of Jacob! Therefore, their “gathering together” to honor Yahweh at Jerusalem could be taken to reference the days when, indeed, hearts from all nations and all corners of the globe are at long last joined together by faith in the Son of God, the living One who was dead but is now alive for ever and ever–when finally every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord.)
In any case, my rambling aside, your belief in the ark’s presence at the End of Days seems refuted by this small Scriptural exert.
How do you respond? With an alternate interpretation, or by suggesting this to be one of the passages in the Old Testament books in err?
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exoflare
Guest
The way you cited it last time made it look like you were trying to use it as evidence.
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Montalban
Guest
I note you’ve not responded to CatholicDude’s comments from May, so I doubt you’ll reply to mine.
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Montalban
Guest
Which bits of the Gospel are still inspired?
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I would like here to quote verses from Quran that throw light on the issue or the related issues:The Holy Quran : Chapter 17: **Bani Isra’il **- 17:102-105
[17:102] And certainly We gave Moses nine manifest Signs. So ask then the Children of Israel. When he came to them, Pharaoh said to him, ‘I do think thee, O Moses, to be a victim of deception.’
[17:103] He said, ‘Thou thinkest well that none has sent down these Signs but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as so many evidences; and I certainly consider thee, O Pharaoh, to be doomed to perish.’
[17:104] So he resolved to remove them from the land; but We drowned him and those who were with him, all together.
[17:105] And after him We said to the Children of Israel, Dwell ye in the promised land; **and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days comes, We shall bring you together out of various peoples.’ **[17:106] And, in accordance with the requirements of truth and wisdom We have sent it down, and with truth and wisdom has it descended. And We have sent thee only as a bearing of good tidings and a Warner.
[17:107] And We have divided the Qur’an in parts that thou mayest read it to mankind slowly and at intervals and We have sent it down piecemeal. Unquote.
If you need some more detail, kindly access relevent verses:
alislam.org/ English w/ 5 Vol. Commentary
There are verses in Quran relating to the West during that period when the Children of Israel would be brought together out of various peoples, Gog- Megog, the dwellers of the cave or catacombs - Christianity. If you feel interested I could provide the references.
Thanks
St. Paul the Apostle spoke about Jesus killing on Cross in 1 Cor 15:
[17] If Christ has not been raised, your faith is **futile **and you are still in your sins.
[18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. Unquote
Now, in my opinion, as you know that Jesus was not killed on Cross, so according to Paul, Catholic viewpoint becomes a waste of energy; needs to be revised.
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Montalban
Guest
Which parts of the Bible are inspired?
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Mjae
Guest
St. Paul the Apostle spoke about Jesus killing on Cross in 1 Cor 15:
[17] If Christ has not been raised, your faith is **futile **and you are still in your sins.
[18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. Unquote
Now, in my opinion, as you know that Jesus was not killed on Cross, so according to Paul, Catholic viewpoint becomes a waste of energy; needs to be revised.
I am sure that your own opinion gives you comfort in your faith, however St Paul’s testimony was that Christ DID die on the cross. I accept his word on this:thumbsup:
[17] If Christ has not been raised, your faith is **futile **and you are still in your sins.
[18] Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. Unquote
Now, in my opinion, as you know that Jesus was not killed on Cross, so according to Paul, Catholic viewpoint becomes a waste of energy; needs to be revised.
I am sure that your own opinion gives you comfort in your faith, however St Paul’s testimony was that Christ DID die on the cross. I accept his word on this:thumbsup:
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porkscratchings
Guest
Paul says ‘if christ has not been raised’ as highlighted. The meaning is ‘raised from the dead’. If Christ was not resurrected from his death on the cross, then the faith of all christians is in vain.
This does not state that Christ did not die on the cross.
The Quranic verses bear no relationship what Paul in fact says. The Quran in fact claims that Jesus did not die on the cross. But I would find the Christian text more authentic because it was written within 60 yrs of Christ’s death by Christians who knew him personally, than the Quran which was written by people who never met Christ, several hundred yrs after the event.
As an historic document, the Quran’s accuracy on the events of Jesus’s life cannot be relied upon.
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Montalban
Guest
In fact many Moslems believe that Al-lah substituted Jesus, thus deceiving the Jews. Al-lah is a deceitful ‘god’.
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scapularkid8
Guest
Sorry guys, I had to tune out on my vacation to New Mexico, but I’m back and ironically enough I met a Muslim for the first time on my trip and she explained the Muslim view of God changing Judas to appear as Jesus at the Crucifixion as Christ was sent to start “kicking it with God in Heaven” as she light-heartedly put it. (She was a truly enjoyable person!) I thought about this and came to the same conclusions as Montalban in regards to the documentation itself.
Any Muslims willing to respond to this?
(By the way, in my personal opinion, I don’t think God would be petty enough to just move his “favor” from one nation to another over the years like he was humanity’s basketball and we’re trying to “dunk it in” at Jerusalem…logically if God truly encompasses All and is All (YHWH), then would His Infinite Domain, Kingdom, or Dwelling increase to all humanity through salvation history? He wouldn’t need to revert to an Ark of Dwelling if His Infinite Power was resting among His People, who are now the Gentiles and Messianic Jews, who in my opinion, are part of the Catholic Church. Any thoughts on this?)
Any Muslims willing to respond to this?
(By the way, in my personal opinion, I don’t think God would be petty enough to just move his “favor” from one nation to another over the years like he was humanity’s basketball and we’re trying to “dunk it in” at Jerusalem…logically if God truly encompasses All and is All (YHWH), then would His Infinite Domain, Kingdom, or Dwelling increase to all humanity through salvation history? He wouldn’t need to revert to an Ark of Dwelling if His Infinite Power was resting among His People, who are now the Gentiles and Messianic Jews, who in my opinion, are part of the Catholic Church. Any thoughts on this?)
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french
Guest
From the religion of khadija.
Khadija came from a break off sect of Catholicism that believed that Catholics worshiped the Virgin Mary. They also believed that Jesus was NOT the son of God, nor was Jesus God.
The religion starts with an A and if you want me to look it up, I can ask a few people lol
Khadija came from a break off sect of Catholicism that believed that Catholics worshiped the Virgin Mary. They also believed that Jesus was NOT the son of God, nor was Jesus God.
The religion starts with an A and if you want me to look it up, I can ask a few people lol
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