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santaro75
Guest
Which church brought us the Bible? Not who wrote it, but under whose authority were the books deemed innerrant and the word of God.
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wcknight
Guest
This is a real no brainer, the Catholic Church had the Bible all mapped out 1200 years before any other Church came on the scene.
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gehall5859
Guest
Santaro75
For almost 400 years after the death of Christ there was not a definitive “New Testament” There were several “gospels” being used by various Bishops.
In 393 the Church convened the Council of Hippo and then later the Council of Carthage in 397 which were to determine which books should be included in the “canon” of the bible and which should not. Both councils sent their judgments off to Rome for the Pope’s approval.
From roughly 30 to 393 is a long time to be without a New Testament. There were many books that alot of people thought was inspired like the Epistles of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermws and the Acts of Paul (these are really quite wonderful to read even if not cannonical and therefore not to be deemed infallible). However, the Church council, with the Pope’s later approval formed the Bible that we now have.
So for all of our Protestant Brothers who preach Sola Scriptura (bible alone) they must accept the Infallability of the Pope and the Catholic Church who assembledthos books now known as the Bible.
Also, did you know that our Catholic Old testament has several books that the Protestants Old Testament does not include?
gehall5859
Luke 12:48
For almost 400 years after the death of Christ there was not a definitive “New Testament” There were several “gospels” being used by various Bishops.
In 393 the Church convened the Council of Hippo and then later the Council of Carthage in 397 which were to determine which books should be included in the “canon” of the bible and which should not. Both councils sent their judgments off to Rome for the Pope’s approval.
From roughly 30 to 393 is a long time to be without a New Testament. There were many books that alot of people thought was inspired like the Epistles of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermws and the Acts of Paul (these are really quite wonderful to read even if not cannonical and therefore not to be deemed infallible). However, the Church council, with the Pope’s later approval formed the Bible that we now have.
So for all of our Protestant Brothers who preach Sola Scriptura (bible alone) they must accept the Infallability of the Pope and the Catholic Church who assembledthos books now known as the Bible.
Also, did you know that our Catholic Old testament has several books that the Protestants Old Testament does not include?
gehall5859
Luke 12:48
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Contarini
Guest
But we are all descended from that “Catholic Church.” What you have to prove is that the churches in communion with Rome today are the only legitimate heirs of the early Catholic Church. I suggest that you start with the Orthodox. Convince them of your claims and many of us (I can speak for myself anyway) will fall in line happily.
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
That’s revisionist propaganda, which dissipates quickly if you actually look at the texts. The Catholic Church (that is to say, the mainstream orthodox Christian body from which Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox are all descended today) was agreed on the basics of the canon (the Four Gospels and the Pauline Epistles) by the second century. You’ve been reading too much Dan Brown . . . .
We don’t have to accept that the councils of Carthage and Hippo were infallible (something Catholics don’t claim, actually); we just have to accept that they were right. And we certainly don’t have to accept that the Pope was infallible simply because the Pope agreed with a decision that we also accept! By that standard, you would have to accept that the bishop of Carthage was infallible, since he also agreed with the decision!
Edwin
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santaro75
Guest
Yes i am aware of that. It has to do with which source you used for your old testament. we use the Greek one and they used the hebrew one. The hebrew one had the those books in it too until AD 90, I believe, when they took them out. the prots use a different old testament book than JESUS himself used.
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MrS
Guest
We do not have to prove the positive. I would suggest that perhaps some one here, who might be an Episcopalian for instance, would attempt to prove that his choice of church affiliation is traced to the Apostolic era.
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MrS
Guest
The Catholic Church did not descend from anything or anyone but Jesus Christ.
What Protestant sect agreed on the canon in the 2nd century… man , talk about revision of history.
Edwin, the second paragraph is strange…
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Contarini
Guest
Did I say otherwise?
That would be revision of history. But of course I said nothing of the kind. I said that Protestants are descended from the Church of the 2nd century. Which is manifestly, incontrovertibly true. We are heirs (along with you) of the entire Christian tradition up to the Reformation. You may believe that our heresies have broken the continuity, but historically speaking that is where our heritage lies. That’s all I’m saying.What Protestant sect agreed on the canon in the 2nd century… man , talk about revision of history.
The claim to which I was responding was strange. Why does accepting a decision mean that I accept the infallibility of any or all of the decision-makers?
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
Why not? If you make a claim, and you expect to convince others of it, you need to provide evidence for it!
I think you mean that you don’t need to prove a negative–i.e., that no other church descends from the apostolic Church. But the descent of Protestantism from medieval (and hence patristic) Christianity is a matter of historical record. The Reformers claimed to be continuing and reforming the Church that had gone before, and this is the constant claim of mainstream Protestantism since. What you need to show is that our rejection of certain aspects of the pre-Reformation Church (mostly of the high and late Middle Ages, though to some extent of earlier periods as well) constitutes a break in our descent from the pre-Reformation Church.
That’s quite easy, unless you deny that St. Augustine of Canterbury had a genuine mission from Pope St. Gregory, who was in succession from St. Peter! Rowan Williams is in continuous succession from St. Augustine, the first archbishop of Canterbury.I would suggest that perhaps some one here, who might be an Episcopalian for instance, would attempt to prove that his choice of church affiliation is traced to the Apostolic era.
Edwin
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dennisknapp
Guest
You do share the same history as the Catholic Church, in so far as you are a branch off of the Church in the West (Roman Catholicism).
Obviously, there is no other history for us in the West, so your historical claim is true.
I would also agree that it is your current status and lack of full catholicity (is that a word?) that makes your church suspect from a Catholic point of view. But after reading your posts on this board Edwin, I would say you are 90-95% Roman Catholic anyway. I am just waiting for you to take the full plunge.
Peace
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NonDenom
Guest
Hi Cats
This is a real no brainer. It was GOD of course.
Thanks
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Trick
Guest
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Ignatius
Guest
Actually, we do not have to “prove” anything. It is not up to us. We cannot pull the scales from their eyes. Our task is simply to get the word out and pray that the Holy Spirit will lead those sincerely seeking the truth to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
Your brother in Christ.
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santaro75
Guest
You mean Gods church?
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tommy4321
Guest
I voted for other as no church brought us the Bible. The credit should only be given to the Father, Jehovah God, and Him alone we should give thanks and praise for the Bible.
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dennisknapp
Guest
Yes, it came down from heaven fully formed and complete in the first century.
Peace
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tommy4321
Guest
The point is that Jehovah God should be given thanks and praise for bringing us the bible not a church. It is “God” who deserves the thanks and praise as religion should not be given what is due God. In these days were in we are so caught up in only wanting to understand what is black and white and God has an abundant amount of power and He gave us the Bible for He loves us so much and He alone is the one I thank for bringing it to us.
It is kind of like saying Helen Keller could not have possibly written her biography because she is deaf, dumb and blind and it does equate that she could have written that then. I wouldn’t thank a religion for it because it takes praise away from the Lord our God. It would make Satan happy if we did not give that praise to God ALONE, no exceptions!
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NonDenom
Guest
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TobyLue
Guest
Where in the Bible did God say He was going to give us the Bible?
Yes, we know that the Bible is the Word of God, but God uses man to proclaim His message. Have you ever thanked your parents for co-operating with God to give you life? We know that God is the source of life but we do not all pop out of thin air. God uses man to bring forth children and as such used the Church to bring us the Bible. So which Church was it? Fact of the matter is, you would not know about God if it had not been for the Catholic Church.
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