T
tommy4321
Guest
tommy4321:
Finally, someone agreed with me here, I was starting to feel unpopular
- Status
N
NonDenom
Guest
G
gehall5859
Guest
So many people saying so many things it gets confusing-
Catholics and Protestants all accept the “Bible” as the inspired Word of God without reservation. In doing so they are excepting the fact that the Pope decided 100% correctly. If he is not infallable then how do you (or we ) know that he did not include any incorrect books, or exclude any books?
Since we all consider the books in the Bible to be infallable (without error) then we accept the fact that the Holy Spirit can make people infallable!
They decided on a serious of “litmus” tests such as :
The original text being extant in Hebrew
Antiquity- Written before the time of Edras
and a couple of others I forget
The two interesting points are:
The Septuagint (Greek translation) Bible would have been the scripture that Timothy referred to in 2Timothy 3:16 " All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness"
My Protestant Brothers, I love you, and know you are Christian. But, unless the Lord screwed up you would have to consider the fact that when Luther branched out some 1500 years after the Lord’s death that
A. The world had been doing without the Lord’s established Church for 15 centuries or
B. THe Catholic Church was the Church established by Jesus and that Luther and his kind seperated themselves from the True Church-
gehall5859
Luke 12:48
- Infallability and who made the Bible the Bible:
Catholics and Protestants all accept the “Bible” as the inspired Word of God without reservation. In doing so they are excepting the fact that the Pope decided 100% correctly. If he is not infallable then how do you (or we ) know that he did not include any incorrect books, or exclude any books?
Since we all consider the books in the Bible to be infallable (without error) then we accept the fact that the Holy Spirit can make people infallable!
- Protestant O.T. and Catholic O.T.-
They decided on a serious of “litmus” tests such as :
The original text being extant in Hebrew
Antiquity- Written before the time of Edras
and a couple of others I forget
The two interesting points are:
The Septuagint (Greek translation) Bible would have been the scripture that Timothy referred to in 2Timothy 3:16 " All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness"
- There are several (I would be glad to list each one if anyone desires) references in the New Testament to passages found in the Deutro-Cannonical Books of the Old Testament (these would be the books thrown out by the Pharasees). Therefore the Septuagint Bible would have been the one that Jesus himself read (after all he died in 33 and the Council of Jamnia didn’t do their thing until 70). Think about it today Catholic use the O.T. that Jesus himself used while Protestants follow the decision of the Pharasees- Please do the research (everything I say is historically documented) don’t just come back saying I am wrong.
- Which Church
My Protestant Brothers, I love you, and know you are Christian. But, unless the Lord screwed up you would have to consider the fact that when Luther branched out some 1500 years after the Lord’s death that
A. The world had been doing without the Lord’s established Church for 15 centuries or
B. THe Catholic Church was the Church established by Jesus and that Luther and his kind seperated themselves from the True Church-
gehall5859
Luke 12:48
P
Philthy
Guest
I think you’re mistaking the bible for the 10 commandments, no?
Phil
T
tommy4321
Guest
Nope, my praise and glory goes to God only for the Bible as I stand firm that I believe He alone wants this praise and glory in His name and not the name of a church or religion.
E
Eden
Guest
So, you do not belong to a church?
Here is what the Scriptures say about the Church:
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.
John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.
John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.
John 17:9-26 - Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.
John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.
Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.
Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.
1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.
Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.
Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.
Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.
Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.
Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.
Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?
Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.
1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.
2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ’s Church.
2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.
More here: scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#the_church-V
P
Philthy
Guest
if God wanted me to know him without a church, he could do it.TobyLue:
Actually you simply claim to know it. God did not reveal that to you, and he didn’t reveal it to anyone you know - you have simply taken someones word for it. Im not so trusting…
NonDenom:
No kidding? I guess you wanted the original question to be phrased: through what church did God reveal the bible as we know it? Would that really have changed your answer?
NonDenom:
boy isnt this analogy a little sloppy? Did God bring me to life through ALL parents or through MY parents? In the context of the discussion at hand, which church did God choose to reveal ( or bring to life) the bible through?
It was not “all churches”…
NonDenom:
No we’re not. You are simply making bold assertions with nothing to back them up, and then attempting to cloak them in “God did it” as your proof. You wont get anywhere with that.
NonDenom:
Trust you? Why on earth would I do that? You seem nice enough, but you have earned no credit whatsoever. You are mischaracterizing what Catholics believe regarding divine inspiration in the NT and how it was brought to be and brought to be recognized as such.
No one questions what God COULD have done, we are trying to deal with what he ACTUALLY has done. And guess what? He chose to reveal himself to you through the Church.
Stop pretending that our recognition of what God ACTUALLY chose to do somehow limits our understanding of what He is capable of doing. Servants of the Lord absoulutely seek credit - credit where credit is due, and that is to God.
“He who hears you hears Me.” Are you listening?
Phil
S
santaro75
Guest
:clapping: AMEN!
T
tommy4321
Guest
F
Fidelis
Guest
When you say “religion” I will presume you mean what many Protestants mean by this: “a man-made system of works intended to work one’s way to heaven.” Aside from the fact this is a shallow definition of religion, the very real fact that God uses men as means to his saving work (Roman 11:14; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 7:16; 9:22; 1 Titus 4:16) is a hard biblical reality for almost all Protestants to admit. It seems not to matter a whit that no one baptizes themselves, or preaches to themselves, or introduces the gospel to themselves–whenever he comes up against any Catholic teaching that seems to involve man’s involvement, this certain type of Protestant has an involuntary violent reaction.
To answer your question which poses yet another false dichotomy (either/or): We thank God for his Church to which he has entrusted his Word, including the inspired Scriptures.
T
tommy4321
Guest
I believe the Protestants follow false religion and also give praise that belongs to God to man. They too have a huge clergy sex scandal.
E
Eden
Guest
I realize that you do not see the connection between Church and Bible. To dismiss His Church is to dismiss Him. Our Lord first created His Church. He established His Church and then He works through it. It is through the authority of His Church that the bishops in the 4th century convened to set the canon.
I still don’t understand this. How is declaring His Church the true Church considered praising and giving glory to a church or religion?
Saying that you belong to a “congregation” is a round-about way of saying that you have a church and a religion. If the church is not necessary, what is the reason that you *do *belong to a church and religion rather than having an independent, personal relationship with Him?
F
Fidelis
Guest
By which you mean, I surmise, that you do not call yourself a Protestant, but merely a Christian or “believer” belonging to no man-made Church. Sorry, but if you are a sola scriptura/sola fide follower of Christ and are not a member of the visible Church he founded (i.e. the Catholic Church), you are a Protestant, a child of the Reformation, no matter what you may wish to call yourself.
“Lone Ranger” Christianity is as unbiblical as Protestanism–but that’s a topic for another thread.
S
santaro75
Guest
And this theology or the new, Jesus and me, theology is very new and very trendy. like my new sneakers. I think it is the new and hottest christian fad.By which you mean, I surmise, that you do not call yourself a Protestant, but merely a Christian or “believer” belonging to no man-made Church. Sorry, but if you are a sola scriptura/sola fide follower of Christ and are not a member of the visible Church he founded (i.e. the Catholic Church), you are a Protestant, a child of the Reformation, no matter what you may wish to call yourself.
“Lone Ranger” Christianity is as unbiblical as Protestanism–but that’s a topic for another thread.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
You are being very dishonest here. Just because the JWs don’t call their child molesting overseers and elders “clergy” doesn’t mean the JWs don’t have a child sex abuse scandal every bit as pervasive as the Catholics and Protestants.
See these links as a small sample:
www.apologeticsindex.org/news1/an010810-06.html
www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/617359/posts
www.lambsroar.com/db/index.php?showtopic=888
www.seattle-chat.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=54
www.tri-cityherald.com/news/2002/0123/story5.html
www.religionnewsblog.com/6762
www.lambsroar.com/db/index.php?showtopic=1077&view=getlastpost
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/29/national/main565579.shtml
www.dannyhaszard.com/who_pays.htm
www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/04.06.05/jehovahs-0514.html
www.lasvegasweekly.com/2003/01_16/news_upfront2.html
Get real, man.
Paul
N
NonDenom
Guest
Hi Cats
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Tommy or I have ever said that the church isn’t necessary. Putting words in other peoples mouths is as bad as lying.
Thanks
T
tommy4321
Guest
Hi: I have a congregation and a religion, the Jehovah’s Wittnesses where I am an active Bible Student and am trying to become a Wittness if I clean a few things up. I am excited about it.
P.S., Your thing on the bottom gives praise to a pope, who is a man. The Lord God wants that praise that is going to a man and is jealous.
this:
“The Church is alive!” - Pope Benedict XVI
Peace, tommy
C
Contarini
Guest
Post 2 said: “That is a real no-brainer.” A “no-brainer” means that something is solidly proven so that no reasonable person would disagree. That is what I was challenging. I don’t dispute that your Church has a reasonable basis for claiming unique descent from the early Catholic Church (as do the Orthodox, and arguably the “Oriental Orthodox” churches and the “Church of the East” as well; we Western dissenters have to be content to claim a part of that heritage through the Western Catholic Church from which we are unhappily divided).
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
Tommy,
This is simply an untenable claim. Are you suggesting that the Bible was dropped from the sky without human authorship? That it was written by people not members of any church? Or that it was written by members of the Church but the Church as an institution played no role in discerning that it was indeed the Word of God.
If you are not claiming one of those three things (and I don’t see how you can claim any of them without flying in the face of reality), then you can’t object to the claim that the Church brought us the Bible. That of course doesn’t settle the question of how the Church that brought us the Bible is related to any of the churches existing today . . . .
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
This is a straw man argument. We aren’t talking about what God could have done but about what God did. God chose to use the Church. So we should be faithful to the means God has chosen to use, rather than inventing other means out of our fertile (but sinful) brains.
Edwin
- Status