Which church is God's true church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

[wisdomseeker]

Uhhh, he had a mother in law so obviously he was married. Of course his wife is not mentioned since the families of the Apostles are not the focus of their ministry.

We know Peter was married:

When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever (Matt. 8:14).

Perhaps his wife may have stayed home while he was away building the church, but that’s not the point is it? He was married and to a woman.

the point is nowhere in the Bible says that a man had to be married to lead the Church.

what St Paul did say is that to marry is good but not to marry is even better. do not ignore this for your own sake.

"Lord, our God, whose power is beyond compare, and glory is beyond understanding; whose mercy is boundless, and love for us is ineffable; look upon us and upon this holy house in Your compassion. Grant to us and to those who pray with us Your abundant mercy."

 

[sola_scriptura]

the point is nowhere in the Bible says that a man had to be married to lead the Church.

what St Paul did say is that to marry is good but not to marry is even better. do not ignore this for your own sake.

"Lord, our God, whose power is beyond compare, and glory is beyond understanding; whose mercy is boundless, and love for us is ineffable; look upon us and upon this holy house in Your compassion. Grant to us and to those who pray with us Your abundant mercy."

I absolutely agree with your statement. I do not purport to say marriage is required of pastors or priests, it’s not. My only beef in this regard is absolute prohibitions on marriage, which seem to ride against Scripture. However, the celibacy of the priesthood is not a big point of contention for me; I’ve protestant for various other reasons.

 

[sola_scriptura]

tell me if post #433 is friendly and logical response?

My response in 433 was in response to your fairly zealous and intolerant statements. If you believe I wasn’t acting in accordance to love then my apologies.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I absolutely agree with your statement. I do not purport to say marriage is required of pastors or priests, it’s not. My only beef in this regard is absolute prohibitions on marriage, which seem to ride against Scripture. However, the celibacy of the priesthood is not a big point of contention for me; I’ve protestant for various other reasons.

What other reasons?

"Lord, our God, whose power is beyond compare, and glory is beyond understanding; whose mercy is boundless, and love for us is ineffable; look upon us and upon this holy house in Your compassion. Grant to us and to those who pray with us Your abundant mercy."

 

[sola_scriptura]

What other reasons?

"Lord, our God, whose power is beyond compare, and glory is beyond understanding; whose mercy is boundless, and love for us is ineffable; look upon us and upon this holy house in Your compassion. Grant to us and to those who pray with us Your abundant mercy."

If I list them we will deviate from the thread topic & wind up in a theological free for all. You might disagree, but I speak from my short experience in this wonderful forum. Mere mention of them will compel a response, it’s unavoidable for the faithful in any denomination to defend their theological perspective (I know it’s hard for me to avoid).

 

[wisdomseeker]

If I list them we will deviate from the thread topic & wind up in a theological free for all. You might disagree, but I speak from my short experience in this wonderful forum. Mere mention of them will compel a response, it’s unavoidable for the faithful in any denomination to defend their theological perspective (I know it’s hard for me to avoid).

well i am interested in knowing what they are. this thread is about which Church is the True Church. if you wnat you can come to my thread non catholics who is wrong and who is right.

"Lord, our God, whose power is beyond compare, and glory is beyond understanding; whose mercy is boundless, and love for us is ineffable; look upon us and upon this holy house in Your compassion. Grant to us and to those who pray with us Your abundant mercy."

 

[cazayoux]

the relevance is?

Visibility of the church that Jesus founded was the relevance.
You mentioned that your church was visible, too.
You might mean just as visible as the Catholic Church.
My point was that your church is new and has not been visible since apostolic times.

michel

 

[sola_scriptura]

well i am interested in knowing what they are. this thread is about which Church is the True Church. if you wnat you can come to my thread non catholics who is wrong and who is right.

Okay, real quick:

1. Intercession & patronage
2. Mariology
3. The use of icons
4. The idea of Apostolic Succession as defined by the broader Catholic community
5. Infallibility
6. Penance
7. The idea that we can be justified by works
8. The interpretation of the role of Peter by the Latin Rite church
9. How the broader Catholic community defines the church of Christ
10. The idea that man has a cooperative role to play in grace and salvation

There’s probably more; but these are my central objections. Again, each of these objections are a thread unto themselves, which is why I didn’t want to enumerate them here. Only the fourth and ninth on my list are really relevant to this topic & I’ve already listed my reasoning behind these positions above.

 

[notsmart]

Wrong answer.

Jesus started His Church on Pentecost, 33 AD.

as well as this beforehand:

Matthew 16:18-19**

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church**, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

You protestants must hate those verses.

I think you have been led astray. That’s not your fault.

There are too many posts here to read, but what do you mean by this? Its confusing. Are you saying Jesus is calling Peter a rock?

 

[distracted]

There are too many posts here to read, but what do you mean by this? Its confusing. Are you saying Jesus is calling Peter a rock?

in this passage where Jesus mentions His Church (that he wil build), he changes simon’s name to Peter… which, in the OT (name changes) were a sign of a new identity… & authority…

Also, “rock” in the Jewish religion/scriptures was a name for God…

in a parable Jesus told, he mentions that the wise man built his house upon a rock… The Church is that rock…

 

[notsmart]

in this passage where Jesus mentions His Church (that he wil build), he changes simon’s name to Peter… which, in the OT (name changes) were a sign of a new identity… & authority…

Also, “rock” in the Jewish religion/scriptures was a name for God…

in a parable Jesus told, he mentions that the wise man built his house upon a rock… The Church is that rock…

Oh. That sounds pretty serious then. On another thread, some Orthodox posters were saying it was Peters brother that took his role over.

I am finding out a heck of a lot in one day!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Okay, real quick:

1. Intercession & patronage
2. Mariology
3. The use of icons
4. The idea of Apostolic Succession as defined by the broader Catholic community
5. Infallibility
6. Penance
7. The idea that we can be justified by works
8. The interpretation of the role of Peter by the Latin Rite church
9. How the broader Catholic community defines the church of Christ
10. The idea that man has a cooperative role to play in grace and salvation

There’s probably more; but these are my central objections. Again, each of these objections are a thread unto themselves, which is why I didn’t want to enumerate them here. Only the fourth and ninth on my list are really relevant to this topic & I’ve already listed my reasoning behind these positions above.

yes i agree with you. there are too many of them. i can understand why you have troubles with them because you were probably raised tought not to believe any of these things.

to me i dont have a problem because i was raised believing them so it all makes sense to me. i was tought to be obedient. obedience to the Lord and His Church. and i love it.
we must be humble, we must be like a child. just like the Lord said. what a child do? they obey.

intersection is very important to us. many times we feel alone and discourage. the Saints to us is an aid because they are with God. therefore we know God loves them and will answer when they ask. the Saints have a better chance with God than people here since we dont know their hearts.

We love Mother Mary because she is the Mother of our Lord. i understand your fears of not believing anybody else because you think is taking the attention away from God. but it is just fears. because when we love what is of God we show that we love Him.

Pictures is important to us. it reminds us they still exist.
humans have the tendency to forget what they dont see. i love to kiss the feet of Jesus in a cross that i have at home. since i cannot do it directly because i cannot see Him. seeing a picture or an statue of Him helps me not to forget what He has done for us.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Okay, real quick:

1. Intercession & patronage
2. Mariology
3. The use of icons
4. The idea of Apostolic Succession as defined by the broader Catholic community
5. Infallibility
6. Penance
7. The idea that we can be justified by works
8. The interpretation of the role of Peter by the Latin Rite church
9. How the broader Catholic community defines the church of Christ
10. The idea that man has a cooperative role to play in grace and salvation

There’s probably more; but these are my central objections. Again, each of these objections are a thread unto themselves, which is why I didn’t want to enumerate them here. Only the fourth and ninth on my list are really relevant to this topic & I’ve already listed my reasoning behind these positions above.

i think most of your problems here is just a matter of faith and trust in Jesus. i dont know exactly what your religion really tells you. it seems to me that protestants look for to understand everything if they dont, they show resistance. it has to do more with trust than there is anything wrong with the things you listed.

Catholics do nto have this problem. we accept, we trust, we believe, we have faith. Catholics have no reason to doubt any teachings of the Church because we see the Church as our mother. she takes care of us, she feeds, she nurtures us spiritualy. it is our life. it is not a religion like so many think it is. it is our culture. we are borne, we live and we die with this faith with confidence that our Lord is with us. we are not afraid.

"Lord, our God, whose power is beyond compare, and glory is beyond understanding; whose mercy is boundless, and love for us is ineffable; look upon us and upon this holy house in Your compassion. Grant to us and to those who pray with us Your abundant mercy."

 

[notsmart]

How can someone not have a role in their salvation? This does not make sense at all to me. If that is protestant belief, I dont like it.

 

[MDK]

Do you know the kind and nature of the unity that Christ prayed for? What was the kind of unity He had with the Father? Do you think the Catholic church has acheived the unity of John 17:21?

I believe Christ prayed for the kind of unity of his flock responding to His establishment of one “Prime Minister” of His Church, endowed with delegated authority form Christ. There is one final authority, which all those who seek to follow Christ must go acknowledge and be in communion with. To deny this, dissent, or to break away from this goes outside the kind of unity that would be produced from a Church such as Jesus established. To put it in plain English, those not in communion with the “Prime Minister” (Pope) that Jesus established and keeps from error in faith and morals, would be outside the unity that would be produced from what Christ established and protects. There are obviously varying degrees of this, as one is farther and farther away.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Visibility of the church that Jesus founded was the relevance.
You mentioned that your church was visible, too.
You might mean just as visible as the Catholic Church.
My point was that your church is new and has not been visible since apostolic times.

michel

First during the decades immediately following the resurrection the church was headed at Jerusalem. It wasn’t until the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and the diaspora that this changed.

The first gentile Christian community of any stature was at Antioch (in modern day Turkey). However, during the lifetime of Paul Rome had a flourishing Christian community. Peter was not the founder of the Roman Christian community, nor does the RCC claim this. The Roman Church in fact does not begin to assume dominance over the Christian world until the time of Irenaeus (early second century).

Prior to Irenaeus there were the apostolic fathers, the big three are Ignatius, Polycarp, and Clement.

Surprisingly Clement is a rather mysterious figure in early Christianity because historians aren’t sure exactly who he was & scholars have debunked the authorship of many writings previously attributed to him. Much is known about Ignatius, however, there has also been problems in establishing the authorship of some of his writings (some proven to have not been written by him). Polycarp, however, remains the one steadfast apostolic father. We know who he was and have conclusively established his authorship of his Epistle to the Philippians.

Polycarp was a follower of John. His letter to the church at Philippi clearly enumerates a presbyterian form of church governance (link here)

It’s time to eat, I’ll try to get into this more in depth later.

 

[Ruthie]

1) Intercession & patronage

I’m not quite sure what you mean by “patronage.” If you are among those who believe that, when we die, our souls just “sleep” until the Second Coming, I can see where intercessionary prayer by the Saints would not make sense. Otherwise, it seems to me to be a quibble. I don’t know a single Christian that doesn’t believe in some form of intercessionary prayer. Haven’t you ever prayed for someone other than yourself?

2) Mariology

If by this, you mean we give Mary worship that belongs to God, you’re wrong. If you disagree with the various forms and strengths of Marian devotion – that is your right. It is also the right of every Catholic. I admit that some of them make me uncomfortable – but I don’t have to participate in them.

*3) The use of icons *

Again, I’m not sure what you’re objecting to. I know there is a prayer-filled process for creating proper icons; I don’t know what it is. If you’re referring to the use of statues and paintings, I will tell you that, like any Catholic, when I touch the Crucifix I wear around my neck during prayer, I do not think I am touching Jesus Himself. I am just making a connection in my mind. We may bow to statues – but we are not bowing to an object made of plaster – we are bowing to the person the statue represents. It’s a gesture of respect.

4) The idea of Apostolic Succession as defined by the broader Catholic community

Your rejection of Apostolic Succession is based on an interpretation of Mt 16:18 that has been purposely designed to exclude Peter as Jesus’ appointed steward of His Church. It’s also based on misinterpreting the power of binding and loosing. If Peter could not bind and loose, he could not appoint bishops. If the Apostles could not bind and loose, they could not appoint successors. If any disciple could bind and loose, then any disciple can declare himself a bishop. We believe the Apostles passed on the power of binding and loosing by the laying on of hands, and it has continued to this day.

*5) Infallibility *

Infallibility is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of the Church. Do you think that every word the Magisterium and/or the Pope has written is infallible? Not so. For example, Pope John Paul II wrote many books; so has Pope Benedict XVI. They are not infallible. There are strict rules that determine what is an infallible teaching. One of them is that it may not contradict Scripture.

6) Penance

Do you really think that, once saved, we need do nothing to atone for sin? Do you never apologize to someone you have misunderstood? Have you never tried to make reparation to those you have sinned against, even after being forgiven? Do you believe that Jesus thinks it’s ok to steal a widow’s mite, repent, and then ignore her?

7) The idea that we can be justified by works

We do not teach this. We teach, with James, that “faith without works is dead.” It’s a little subtle. Works show that our faith is not dead. A dead faith will not get us to Heaven. Neither will works without love – see 1 Cor 13. Faith and works are intertwined. Faith without works is dead. Works without faith are dead, too. If you do not have the kind of faith that results in works, you will not make it to Heaven.

8) The interpretation of the role of Peter by the Latin Rite church

Not just the Latin church, but by all the Catholic churches in communion with Rome. See my answer to #4. (Or do you not know that the Catholic Church contains different churches according to their rites? The Latin rite is the biggest in the US, but there are others.)

9) How the broader Catholic community defines the church of Christ

Broader Catholic community? Do you mean the posters here who say that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus? That is dogma, not personal opinion.

10) The idea that man has a cooperative role to play in grace and salvation

Are you a Calvinist? If you believe in predestination, I can understand this. But I don’t agree. We are given grace – we can obey it or not. We have free will.

 

[sola_scriptura]

*Are you a Calvinist? If you believe in predestination, I can understand this. But I don’t agree. We are given grace – we can obey it or not. We have free will. *

Ruthie:

I didn’t respond to your other points because, as I said, each point is a full topic unto itself. Suffice it to say I am very acquainted with the Catholic position in each of those areas & disagree (I know the asserted difference between veneration & worship, I understand infallibility doesn’t mean impeccability, etc.). I just wanted to respond here.

Yes I am a Calvinist reformed protestant (Presbyterian). This is obviously a topic unto itself as well; but TULIP and soteriology is one of my favorite topics – and as such I’m tempted to delve into it, but out of respect for the OP I will refrain (I’m always interested if you start a thread on the topic though).

 

[StevenFrancis]

I can say with full faith that it is the Catholic Church. To be fair to all those still in doubt, however, I have to point out that I’m in my 50’s, and I really had no use for the Catholic Church until about 2003. I would only call myself a convert since somewhere in 2004, and I wasn’t confirmed until the Easter vigil in 2005.

Since I was called, and certainly since my confirmation, I’ve noticed that the person I was, and the things I thought…the pathways I took in all these years that I let slip on by, just continue to grow hazier and more curious. When I think of Buddhism, (where I spent the bulk of my adult life, mind you), it just seems foreign. When I call to mind an image of myself sitting on my cushion in chant, it’s like watching a movie about some doppelganger of myself who perhaps grew up in Sri Lanka or Thailand or something. But it’s not me. I understand more and more, as I open myself further to my Lord what St. Paul meant by having died, and that Christ was now living in him instead.

That is what I aspire to now. To be like Jesus. To keep living the best imperfect imitation I am capable of until time is fulfilled.

Peace,

Steven

 

[sola_scriptura]

I can say with full faith that it is the Catholic Church. To be fair to all those still in doubt, however, I have to point out that I’m in my 50’s, and I really had no use for the Catholic Church until about 2003. I would only call myself a convert since somewhere in 2004, and I wasn’t confirmed until the Easter vigil in 2005.

Since I was called, and certainly since my confirmation, I’ve noticed that the person I was, and the things I thought…the pathways I took in all these years that I let slip on by, just continue to grow hazier and more curious. When I think of Buddhism, (where I spent the bulk of my adult life, mind you), it just seems foreign. When I call to mind an image of myself sitting on my cushion in chant, it’s like watching a movie about some doppelganger of myself who perhaps grew up in Sri Lanka or Thailand or something. But it’s not me. I understand more and more, as I open myself further to my Lord what St. Paul meant by having died, and that Christ was now living in him instead.

That is what I aspire to now. To be like Jesus. To keep living the best imperfect imitation I am capable of until time is fulfilled.

Peace,

Steven

Nice testimony … God Bless!