Which church is God's true church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

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Martin Luther, the “Father of Protestantism”, called the Catholic Book, or the Book of James, the “Book of Straw” and he wanted it removed from the Bible, did he not?
Yes, you are correct in what Martin Luther wanted. I believe he was in error when he stated his thoughts about the Epistle of James. The reason I think he wanted it removed because it conflicted with his sola fide argument. I don’t believe in sola fide or sola scriptura (kinda strange for a Protestant) but because Luther so believed in sola fide, he wanted James removed. Again, this is my theory and I can’t prove it, but it makes sense.
 
Since the Scriptures are the only inspired-inerrant Word of God what is greater or equal to it?
The Church is also God breathed, and inspired - inerrant.

John 20:21-23
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he **breathed on them **and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
 
The problem is that the passage in I Timothy 3 about leadership is not a discipline but a requirement.
No, I think the problem you are having is that you have separated yourself from the Apostolic Tradition, and this prevents you from interpreting the passage as it was meant. Marriage is not a requirement for bishops.
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It took until the 4th century for all the 27 books of the NT to be formally recognized as Scripture.
So, why do you reject the other books of the OT that were formally recognized at that time?
Code:
There were "tests" that each book of the NT had to pass before it was included in the canon. One of the tests it had to pass was it Scripture.
This does not make any sense. :confused:
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2 separate issues. The Marian doctrines cannot be supported by the Scriptures. Her supposed immaculate conception and assumption are to doctrines not found in Scripture. You also do not find Christians praying to her in Scripture.
Well we read it differently. 😃

We also do not find the word “Trinity” or the hypostatic union, or the table of contents for the Bible. You accept all these Sacred Traditions of the Catholic Church, yet mysteriously reject others that come from the same Source. :confused:
Code:
Not so. Just because people can get something right on one thing does not mean they will get everything right. That's why each doctrine and practice must be examined and tested.
What you are saying is that Jesus is a liar, or a weakling,
We have no reason to think from this passage that she thought she was sinless. Rather she must of been thinking why God would chose her for such an important task.
I think that Mary did not even understand how magnificient her role would be.
True. What catholics do is to read into this passage more than there is.
When we read it, we read through the lens of the Apostolic Teachings, so we see things that are not visible to those who have rejected the Sacred Traditions. 😉
Code:
Not so. No doubt Peter was one of the main leaders in the NT church. However, there were others (James and John) for example. Look also at Acts 15 where James has the final say on what must be done.
do you think that Jesus did not give Peter a special ministry that was given to no other?
There is a lot here. One thing we do know from Acts is that Peter will be the one to open the door to kingdom of God for all the people to enter not by his own merits but by preaching the gospel.
Indeed. And what was Cornelius doing that caught God’s attention?
 
God’s church is not a religious group. God’s church is a number (known only to Him) of Spirits that (while they were still alive) believed in and trusted in Him. Please study God’s Word so that no one will draw you away from the Truth my friend.
 
God’s church is not a religious group. God’s church is a number (known only to Him) of Spirits that (while they were still alive) believed in and trusted in Him. Please study God’s Word so that no one will draw you away from the Truth my friend.
sorry, but your advise shows failure, since you claim to study the
Word and yet you have been drawn away from the Truth.

you are right in one thing though, that God’s Church is not a religious group which describes protestants churches.

the CC is not a religious group. the CC is a divine institution commanded by Jesus to safeguard His Word then use to teach all men. that all believe and live One faith, One Lord, One baptism, One Spirit. and this has been believed by all to be the Church for 2000 yrs.

for anyone to come here after all these yrs with new ideas as to what the Church is, it is pathetic and heretic. believe what you want. since you have the SS i guess you can enterpret any way it fits what you want to believe.

you can either follow and obey the Church instituted by Christ in St Peter or you can join the haters of this Church and follow what is tought by man with itching ears.

Jesus has warned His apostles that false teachers would arise.

St. Thomas Aquina
**“According to the promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains free from all taint of heresy or deceit in its pontiffs, the Popes, and in the full faith and authority of Peter, and while other churches are shamed by errors, she reigns the solitary Church, unshakably established, imposing silence and closing the mouths of heretics and we, of necessity for our salvation, proclaim and confess this as the pattern of holy, apostolic tradition.” **
 
sorry, but your advise shows failure,

you can either follow and obey the Church instituted by Christ in St Peter or you can join the haters of this Church and follow what is tought [sic] by man with itching ears. :confused:
Just one question: do you think this type of language furthers any conversation with our fellow christians??? 🤷
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
Since the Scriptures are the only inspired-inerrant Word of God what is greater or equal to it?

ChristianRoots
Wait. Just hold on a second…How do you know that the Scriptures are the only inspired-inerrant Word of God?

Did biblical verses tell you this? Which ones?

If you can’t cite any verse, who told you about this man-made tradition? Or did you just rationalize this yourself?

And now to answer your question: The Holy Spirit.
The church of the 4th century determined which books would be in the NT canon by various “tests” that were used to determine which were indeed Scripture. Keep in mind the church itself did not make the Scriptures inspired-inerrant but were already inspired-inerrant by God.
 
The Church is also God breathed, and inspired - inerrant.

John 20:21-23
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he **breathed on them **and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Does the catholic church offically claim i.e." The Church is also God breathed, and inspired - inerrant" somewhere?
Or how about some catholic theologians? Do they say the same thing?
 
ok. since yourself stablished that nothing can be greater than the Word of God, i want to see where you go with this.
This means that in terms of authority the Scriptures are greater and take 1st place in what a Christian is to believe and practice. If a church or teacher teaches something that is contrary to the Scriptures that teaching is not binding or to be followed.
 
This means that in terms of authority the Scriptures are greater and take 1st place in what a Christian is to believe and practice. If a church or teacher teaches something that is contrary to the Scriptures that teaching is not binding or to be followed.
and who determines what teachings are contrary to the SS?

for example: baptists teach one thing, prebyterians teaches another, evangelics teaches another when they pick the same passage of SS. now who determines among you which one is teaching the True meaning of the passage? since they all claim to have the HS. unless you agree that it does not matter the Bible is to be enterpret whichever fits their beliefs.

St. Thomas Aquinas
** “According to the promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains free from all taint of heresy or deceit in its pontiffs, the Popes, and in the full faith and authority of Peter, and while other churches are shamed by errors, she reigns the solitary Church, unshakably established, imposing silence and closing the mouths of heretics and we, of necessity for our salvation, proclaim and confess this as the pattern of holy, apostolic tradition.” **
 
If a church or teacher teaches something that is contrary to the Scriptures that teaching is not binding or to be followed.
So, then, can you show me a teaching of the Catholic Church that is ‘contrary’ to Scripture?

Every single teaching is Scripturally based, you know. While you may not personally ‘accept’ the interpretation of say the Immaculate Conception, the Scripture of Luke with the angelic salutation, and various O.T. prophecies as well as scripture from Revelation support the doctrine. There is nothing ‘aScriptural’ about the teaching. And of course, the very earliest Protestants (using the very same Scripture/Bible that we have today) believed in this teaching too, just as Catholics do.

We also follow Scripture with John 6 (which again some of our Protestant brothers accept as well); it is some other Protestants who reject the teaching of John 6 as ‘only symbolic’, rejecting over 1000 years’ worth prior (and 2000 years worth as held by Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants to this day) teaching of the Reality of the teaching.

Clerical celibacy? It’s in there --and in any case, not all Catholic priests ‘must be’ celibate. In any case, it is Scripturally based --a sound teaching. “Those who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom. . .he has ears to hear, ought to hear”.

The Assumption? Not contradicted by Scripture. The woman in Revelation (who is ‘multifaceted’ and can be, at the same time, Mary, Israel, AND the Church, without contradiction), the O.T. parallel of Elijah, and furthermore, Scripture itself telling us of how the Holy Spirit will ‘guide us to all Truth’ as well as passages regarding the ‘binding and loosing’ of the apostles and apostolic succession. . .all support this.
 
ChristianRoots;4009699]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
There were “tests” that each book of the NT had to pass before it was included in the canon. One of the tests it had to pass was it Scripture.
ChristianRoots;
I think you and I went down this road before, so I will jump ahead…Why have you assumed that the authority that produced the Scriptures in the first place no longer exists in that capacity? You trusted this authority to infallibly produce the Bible, yet you adamantly refuse to acknowledge it any longer in an authoritative capacity. Why? and Where are the biblical verses to support your reasoning?
The church itself did not “produce” the Scriptures but they have their source in God. We also know that the OT Scriptures were not produced by the church. God used people to write these things down.
If by authority you mean the church i did not say that. The church as an authority still exists and exercises that authority.
If you say we cannont know anything for sure nowadays so we must only rely on the Bible, then your logic must also be applied to the authority that first produced the Bible as well. You must also concede that their conclusions may be dubious because their was no Scripture present to test it against!
We can know many things for sure today. If a person wants to present a new doctrine or practice then we can go to the scriptures to see if such a thing should be done. We can even ask if such a thing is necessary if the Scriptures already teach such a thing. Praying to the saints is one such example. Its unnecessary since Christ alone is sufficient for everything we need. We have direct access to Him.
Quote:justasking4
2 separate issues. The Marian doctrines cannot be supported by the Scriptures. Her supposed immaculate conception and assumption are to doctrines not found in Scripture. You also do not find Christians praying to her in Scripture.
ChristianRoots;
You also do not find December 25th celebrated as Christmas in the Bible, either. Do you celebrate Christmas on December 25th?
Yes.
Quote:justasking4
Not so. Just because people can get something right on one thing does not mean they will get everything right. That’s why each doctrine and practice must be examined and tested.
ChristianRoots;
Examined against what? Oh, ultimately the Bible…So where is that biblical verse again?
I Thess 5:21-22 is a good place to start—
21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22 abstain from every form of evil.

Also Acts 17:11 is a demonstration of this.
Quote:justasking4
Of course it has an impact. Just because you haven’t found her bones does not mean she was assumed into heaven. If you accept that then you would have to believe that all the people mentioned in the Scriptures in whom we have not found their bones must also been taken up directly to heaven.
ChristianRoots;
That’s like saying if we find any bones, they must not be in heaven.
True. It also does not follow that since we don’t have the bones she must have been taken up into heaven either. There is no positive evidence this happened.
.
Quote:justasking4
We have no reason to think from this passage that she thought she was sinless.

ChristianRoots;
I agree. Mary most likely did not know what the title meant. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t true for her either.
Do you have any evidence in the NT that leads you to think that Mary thought she was without sin?
Quote:justasking4
Rather she must of been thinking why God would chose her for such an important task.
ChristianRoots;
She must have thought that at the sight of the angel’s appearance. If not, what do you think Mary was thinking when she first saw the angel?
I don’t think she expected such a thing and was probably overwhelemed with it all.
The title “Full of Grace” was an extraordinary greeting. Shouldn’t Mary have been elated at how she was addressed?
I get the sense from the passage that this encounter went rather quickly and it would take time to absorb it all. Actually she was not elated but troubled by it. See Luke 1:29
The fact that she was troubled indicates that she recognized the unique greeting had some type of implication for her. Otherwise, you are giving Mary a reputation for being scared, worried, or wanting to be left alone ( i.e. troubled) when God approached her for a purpose.
i agree with the first part here but i don’t know where you get the idea that i think this what you write in the 2nd part.
ChristianRoots;
That is not the Mary of the Bible.
Quote:justasking4
True. What catholics do is to read into this passage more than there is.
ChristianRoots;
I have already said it is not explicit in Scripture. But this is not problematic for Catholics since we do not rely only Sacred Scripture. We also equally depend on Sacred Tradition.
By implication all kinds of things could be said to be true. What Sacred Tradition are you referring to? It took centuries before the claims about her are mentioned.
 
wisdomseeker;4011970]
Originally Posted by justasking4
This means that in terms of authority the Scriptures are greater and take 1st place in what a Christian is to believe and practice. If a church or teacher teaches something that is contrary to the Scriptures that teaching is not binding or to be followed.
wisdomseeker
and who determines what teachings are contrary to the SS?
The pastors and elders. It is their job to understand the Scriptures correctly and to teach others.
for example: baptists teach one thing, prebyterians teaches another, evangelics teaches another when they pick the same passage of SS. now who determines among you which one is teaching the True meaning of the passage? since they all claim to have the HS. unless you agree that it does not matter the Bible is to be enterpret whichever fits their beliefs.
Lets take baptism as an example. In Scripture we see:
1- repentance
2- belief that Christ died for those sins
3- confess Christ
4 -full immersion in baptism

If someone wants to refute these principles then they are going to have to bring those ideas to the table for study.

Take infant baptism. It fails on the first 3 points.
St. Thomas Aquinas
** “According to the promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains free from all taint of heresy or deceit in its pontiffs, the Popes, and in the full faith and authority of Peter, and while other churches are shamed by errors, she reigns the solitary Church, unshakably established, imposing silence and closing the mouths of heretics and we, of necessity for our salvation, proclaim and confess this as the pattern of holy, apostolic tradition.” **
 
coyotekate77;4012007]
So, then, can you show me a teaching of the Catholic Church that is ‘contrary’ to Scripture?
Every single teaching is Scripturally based, you know. While you may not personally ‘accept’ the interpretation of say the Immaculate Conception, the Scripture of Luke with the angelic salutation, and various O.T. prophecies as well as scripture from Revelation support the doctrine. There is nothing ‘aScriptural’ about the teaching. And of course, the very earliest Protestants (using the very same Scripture/Bible that we have today) believed in this teaching too, just as Catholics do.
We also follow Scripture with John 6 (which again some of our Protestant brothers accept as well); it is some other Protestants who reject the teaching of John 6 as ‘only symbolic’, rejecting over 1000 years’ worth prior (and 2000 years worth as held by Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants to this day) teaching of the Reality of the teaching.
Clerical celibacy? It’s in there --and in any case, not all Catholic priests ‘must be’ celibate. In any case, it is Scripturally based --a sound teaching. “Those who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom. . .he has ears to hear, ought to hear”.
The Assumption? Not contradicted by Scripture. The woman in Revelation (who is ‘multifaceted’ and can be, at the same time, Mary, Israel, AND the Church, without contradiction), the O.T. parallel of Elijah, and furthermore, Scripture itself telling us of how the Holy Spirit will ‘guide us to all Truth’ as well as passages regarding the ‘binding and loosing’ of the apostles and apostolic succession. . .all support this.
There is a lot here. Where has the Catholic church offically interpreted the Scriptures to mean what you claim here? Take for example Clerical celibacy. Has the Catholic church offically interpreted I Timothy 3 to mean that a man is to be celibate and not married to be a church leader?
 
There is a lot here. Where has the Catholic church offically interpreted the Scriptures to mean what you claim here? Take for example Clerical celibacy. Has the Catholic church offically interpreted I Timothy 3 to mean that a man is to be celibate and not married to be a church leader?
The Catholic Church concerning celibacy as a discipline not dogma. It is not mandatory, if it was mandatory, there would be no married priest in the entire Catholic Church. In the Latin Rite, there are priests who are married under the Pastoral Provision established by Rome. Many of these married men were former Anglican, or Lutheran ministers. In the Eastern Rite Catholic Church, there are married men who are priests.

In Church history from its beginning always have men already married become priests like Peter. There was never a single priest marrying someone once he is ordained into the priesthood. This is a practiced done in the Latin and Eastern.
 
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is a lot here. Where has the Catholic church offically interpreted the Scriptures to mean what you claim here? Take for example Clerical celibacy. Has the Catholic church offically interpreted I Timothy 3 to mean that a man is to be celibate and not married to be a church leader?

Mannyfit75
The Catholic Church concerning celibacy as a discipline not dogma. It is not mandatory, if it was mandatory, there would be no married priest in the entire Catholic Church. In the Latin Rite, there are priests who are married under the Pastoral Provision established by Rome. Many of these married men were former Anglican, or Lutheran ministers. In the Eastern Rite Catholic Church, there are married men who are priests.

In Church history from its beginning always have men already married become priests like Peter. There was never a single priest marrying someone once he is ordained into the priesthood. This is a practiced done in the Latin and Eastern.
Is it not true that if a Roman Catholic married man wants to become a priest that he is disqualified at the start from even being considered for the priesthood because he is married?
 
Is it not true that if a Roman Catholic married man wants to become a priest that he is disqualified at the start from even being considered for the priesthood because he is married?
Under the current Code of Canon Law, single baptized Catholic men can be ordained priests in the Latin Rite (Roman Rite). A man from Latin Rite; who is married man cannot enter into the priesthood. So the answer to your question is yes but only in a Latin Rite. This Law could change if another Church Synod was to be called forth.

However, if you want to look at the entire Catholic Church not just Roman Rite but the other 22 Eastern Rites, married men can be ordained priests.

I have a question for you, does the Bible condemned celibacy?
 
Mannyfit75;4012224]Under the current Code of Canon Law, single baptized Catholic men can be ordained priests in the Latin Rite (Roman Rite). A man from Latin Rite; who is married man cannot enter into the priesthood. So the answer to your question is yes but only in a Latin Rite. This Law could change if another Church Synod was to be called forth.
However, if you want to look at the entire Catholic Church not just Roman Rite but the other 22 Eastern Rites, married men can be ordained priests.
I have a question for you, does the Bible condemned celibacy?
No. However Paul does seem to say that it is better to marry than to burn. I Corinthians 7:9.

What do you think are the characteristics of a celibate man? Does it mean he has no desire for the opposite sex or sex at all?
 
shrugs

Whatever floats your boat. If Divinity is infinite, I don’t quite understand how all the Truth can be contained in one particular denomination of one particular sect. It seems that Hindu claim to Truth, or the Buddhist, or the Native American religions, or the Taoist all have as good a claim to the Truth as Christianity’s.

Just my opinion, of course.
This quote really tells that you have a lot of learning ahead of you. Jesus taught One Truth, established One Church, wanted everyone to be One - not many. He started His Church - the Early Church - the Catholic Church. He breathed on the apostles (which is a very important) and gave His Authority to Apostles to go forth and teach, to bind and loose, gave Peter the Keys and told him to feed His sheep, and promised to guide them and protect the Church until the end of time. Do you believe that he means what he says? Do you believe that Jesus meant what he said there? Anyway, that is One Church beginning, not many. There can and is only One true Church founded by Christ and he wanted every Christian to be One in it. Splits off of the original Church that Christ founded to begin their own Churches aren’t One. They were started by man, not by Christ. Nor were they given His divine Authority. Just start reading from the historical beginning, all the history of the times, the beginning of the Church, what the original teachings were for over 1500 years before the Reformation brought changes to those teachings. The Catholic Church still teaches those SAME teachings. It’s teaching and interpretation of Christ’s Deposit of Faith has NEVER changed. It is One. From the Reformation forward, you can p(name removed by moderator)oint the exact years that each denomination/Church was established and who established it. That alone tells you it is not Christ’s Church. He said One, and that is what he meant.
 
The RCC has quietly accpeted much of the Reformation, althought they would never admit it.
OK, SERIOUSLY, what planet are you from? You are kidding, right? That is ABSOLUTELY not even remotely true. The Reformers separated from the Catholic Church and changed teachings/interpretations/doctrine and formed a whole new church. The Catholic Church did NOT accept ANY of the Reformation, PERIOD!
 
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