Which church is God's true church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy_B
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Jimmy B,

I have found trying to engage Calvinists in theological debate to be quite pointless. In fact, I can remember one guy who attends the same University I do and we have had several theological discussions and they always end with me wanting to pop him one in the face (I do not of course).

What really irked me about the one I had to deal with was that he viewed Calvin’s commentary/interpretation as the only interpretation that really makes sense and on par with Scripture itself. There was just something in the guy’s demeanor, this aura of theological pride, almost self-righteousness and obnoxiousness that drove me up the wall.

The problem with Calvinists is the elevate Calvin and his ideas into a position of near infallibility and they have their own rationale. As I mentioned earlier, I find Calvinism to be a, quite frankly, worthless doctrine.

Sorry if I sound mean, but that Calvinist I dealt with left a very bad taste in my mouth towards the Calvinism. It should be noted that, although Presbyterianism claims Calvin as its founder, most Presbyterians are not hardcore Calvinists.

Perhaps it is the arbitrariness and elitism of hardcore Calvinism that bugs me. And, sola_scriptura, I hope you do not take my comments personally, but I see problems and contradictions within the very underpinnings of Calvinism and the representative I had to deal with did not leave one with a good personal view of Calvinistic beliefs.
I was a Methodist before becoming a Presbyterian. I am not a hyper-Calvinist nor do I hold his institutes as being equal to Scripture (or anything close for that matter).

However, on balance I became convinced by Calvin’s presentation of predestination and divine providence.

I’m not one who gets mad or at least in my experience thinks anyone who disagrees with Calvin is doomed to hell or any such nonsense – but I’ve experiences Calvinists who are like that (but I’ve experienced plenty of annoying Arminians, Catholics, and Anglicans as well).

I used to be a defender of free will and the idea that prevenient grace is universally applied equally to all mankind. I’ve read almost every writing John Wesley ever produced. So I’m well versed in Arminian doctrine and the Remonstrants.

On balance I also think Karl Barth was a great theologian (even though I don’t agree with everything he wrote). He was reformed as well, but held a position of “hypothetical universalism” (which would make Calvin turn in his grace for sure).

So I think you’re mischaracterizing Calvinists based on a very limited statistical sample (your college buddy), which is logically fallacious of course.

Finally the argument you pose of the “elitism” of hardcore Calvinists is I think quite a double standard. I mean when the Catholic Church claims to be the “one true church” and the body of Christ itself, and to boot infallible, how are we suddenly the “elite” ones? The charge is almost laughable.
 
You and Jean Cauvin (Calvin) are nonsensical.

I think St Clement said it much better than you or Jean Cauvin.

Matt 5:16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Ah, now you are saying that we respond and cooperate with grace. Now you are coming around.🙂
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Correct. We are saved by grace. We must freely accept this grace. Our good works are the result of our faith. Faith and works cannot be separated.
Again, I’ll take the Church Fathers over Jean Cauvin–any day! 😉

**As then it is His[God’s] part to plant and to water, so it is yours to bear fruit: it is God’s to grant grace, but yours to receive and guard it. Despise not the grace because it is freely given, but receive and treasure it devoutly. **
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 1)

However, there are things that Cauvin said that I agree with. Here are two:

“Helvidius has shown himself too ignorant, in saying that Mary had several sons, because mention is made in some passages of the brothers of Christ.”

“To this day we cannot enjoy the blessing brought to us in Christ without thinking at the same time of that which God gave as adornment and honour to Mary, in willing her to be the mother of his only-begotten Son.”
Frankly it’s obvious from your tone you have no serious interest in discussing this issue in a Christian manner – your more interested in insulting me and the doctrines of my denomination.

Well, I decline the invitation to join you in the mud pit.
 
Frankly it’s obvious from your tone you have no serious interest in discussing this issue in a Christian manner – your more interested in insulting me and the doctrines of my denomination.

Well, I decline the invitation to join you in the mud pit.
I am so sorry that you feel that way. You began by saying that one of the Church Fathers was nonsensical. I should not have joined you in the mud pit by stating that you and Cauvin are nonsensical. My apologies.

But other than that, I believe that I answered in a reasonable and Christian manner.
Good day. :tiphat:
 
Thanks Jimmy B for the support. WOW, I have to say to you sola scriptura, you are entirely off base. I was in NO way “purporting to feel my pain and empathize with my alleged theological confusion, and then attack through the back door.” You are gravely mistaken. I wasn’t given much by you to go on other than you disagree with Catholic dogma, a lot that the Catholic Church teaches, and the impression that the Catholic Church is less that adequate.

Whatever beliefs you hold, if they are different from what the Catholic Church teaches, are less than 500 years old, invented by man, taught by man’s own interpretation and NOT Jesus’ teachings. So, whatever puffery you think I was attempting, is just you having to deny the Catholic Church’s teachings to justify teachings outside of her.

I don’t have the time to recreate the wheel. There have been many conversations in regards to faith alone/grace through works, because of faith. So, instead of spending time that I didn’t have trying to re-write it, I gave you some threads which have this very discussion and much more in it for your information. There is more on those threads, and written much better than I could attempt for you.

Your response was disrespectful to me and to anyone else who is trying to show you/teach you Jesus’ Deposit of Faith, as He ONLY gave it to apostles who taught it the way He commanded them to through His Divine Protection to found HIS Church, which is the Catholic Church. There is NO OTHER CHURCH that can teach you Scripture interpretation and Jesus’ teachings, because they were given to the Catholic Church and they remain with us and not with the Churches founded from the split from Christ’s Church by man.

So, to clarify, I was not attacking you or blowing smoke. I was actually serious. So, you are the one that needs to re-evaluate where you are. It seems to me that you are the one who is prideful. Why are you here? You aren’t going to teach us anything. The Catholic Church wase around teaching Jesus’ Truth long before your Church was ever created by man, penned the Bible, and continued to spread Jesus’ Truth for all generations. You are following teachings and traditions of men, because you aren’t following the original teachings of Christ. You can say whatever you want, believe whatever you want to believe. That will NEVER make it true. Maybe one day you will be able to see the error of believing modern man and churches.
You said, and I quote:
Always For Him:
I do believe that you HAVE to set your pre-concieved notions aside to realize that you have learned in error.
This is a non-starter for any fruitful discussion. When I object to RCC doctrine, I will always say something like:

I disagree with the role of Mary as depicted by the RCC. Or I disagree with the idea that we can do anything pleasing to God (in terms of works) without first being regenerated. Or I disagree with the idea of intercession or veneration or the use of icons, etc.

I do not make blanket ad hom statements that personalize the argument. It’s logically fallacious and it was a back door insult.
 
I am so sorry that you feel that way. You began by saying that one of the Church Fathers was nonsensical. I should not have joined you in the mud pit by stating that you and Cauvin are nonsensical. My apologies.

But other than that, I believe that I answered in a reasonable and Christian manner.
Good day. :tiphat:
I did not personalize the statement toward Clement himself. I merely commented on the statement you posted made by Clement. I did know Clement and therefore would have no logical basis for an ad hom attack on the man.

Yes, I did find that statement to be illogical. That’s the extent of what I said – perhaps the word “nonsensical” was harsh, but frankly it’s a commonly used word in debate to denote illogical (in the future I will simply say I disagree with that statement).
 
I did not personalize the statement toward Clement himself. I merely commented on the statement you posted made by Clement. I did know Clement and therefore would have no logical basis for an ad hom attack on the man.
Then I suppose I can say the same. I do not know you and I did not know Cauvin—but I find both your statements’ to be “illogical”.
 
Then I suppose I can say the same. I do not know you and I did not know Cauvin—but I find both your statements’ to be “illogical”.
That’s fine, but why? I mean we can learn about each others doctrines by simply researching. The purpose of a discussion forum is to flesh these issues out isn’t it?

I’m not sure why the objection to predestination, a view held by Augustine. Certainly Calvin went further than Augustine did, in his view of “double predestination” – but I do think that it is very logical.

If we look at Eph. 1:4-5 for example, we learn predestination is true. Not only did God predestine to salvation all who will be saved, but we learn it was a past act (completed before the founding of the world). Then if we turn to John 3:18 we learn those who will not believe are not only condemned, but condemned “already” (again, a past act). These two verses seem to show double predestination? There are many other verses; but these two are a great place to start.
 
This statement is nonsensical. How is “working and toiling” any different than “eagerly and honestly” seeking to overcome sin? This is just semantics.

What St. Clement should have said (in order to properly understand the distinction between works that flow from faith and works that do not) is to look for the motive behind the works. If the motive is to please God then it is faith, since one will not seek to please a God they do not believe in. If the motive is to gain or bolster their own status within their community (or some other self serving purpose) then it is not faith. We see this revealed in the discourse between Jesus and the Pharisees.

Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will (Ephesians 1:4-5).


This passage merely shows predestination is true, nothing more or less. So it may be used to support either yours or my own perspective. However, we may at least start by knowing those who will respond to and cooperate with grace and endure to the end were predestined for salvation before the founding of the world.

Now the question turns to the mechanics of election. Either God looked down the tunnel of time and saw our future choices, electing accordingly, or we were elected by eternal decree.
If we say God looked down the tunnel of time to see what our choice would be before formulating His elective decree, it then is really our choice not God’s. Even if there is such a thing as the universal enablement you posit it is still ultimately our choice. We decide not God, and grace is no longer grace but something less.

*For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10).*

The grace that saves is not of ourselves, not a result of works.

*Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Timothy 1:9).

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:28-30).

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37).*

The following is a excerpt from John Calvin, the Institutes on the Christian Religion:

*THE covenant of life not being equally preached to all, and among those to whom it is preached not always finding the same reception, this diversity discovers the wonderful depth of the Divine judgment. Nor is it to be doubted that this variety also follows, subject to the decision of God’s eternal election. If it be evidently the result of the Divine will, that salvation is freely offered to some, and others are prevented from attaining it—this immediately gives rise to important and difficult questions, which are incapable of any other explication, than by the establishment of pious minds in what ought to be received concerning election and predestination—a question, in the opinion of many, full of perplexity; for they consider nothing more unreasonable, than that, of the common mass of mankind, some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. But how unreasonably they perplex themselves will afterwards appear from the sequel of our discourse. Besides, the very obscurity which excites such dread, not only displays the utility of this doctrine, but shows it to be productive of the most delightful benefit. We shall never be clearly convinced as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from the fountain of God’s free mercy, till we are acquainted with His eternal election, which illustrates the grace of God by this comparison, that He adopts not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what He refuses to others.

Ignorance of this principle evidently detracts from the Divine glory, and diminishes real humility. But according to Paul, what is so necessary to be known, never can be known, unless God, without any regard to works, chooses those whom He has decreed. “At this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise, work is no more work.” If we need to be recalled to the origin of election, to prove that we obtain salvation from no other source than the mere goodness of God, they who desire to extinguish this principle, do all they can to obscure what ought to be magnificently and loudly celebrated, and to pluck up humility by the roots. In ascribing the salvation of the remnant of the people to the election of grace, Paul clearly testifies, that it is then only known that God saves whom upon which there can be no claim. They who shut the gates to prevent anyone from presuming to approach and taste this doctrine, do no less injury to man than to God; for nothing else will be sufficient to produce in us suitable humility, or to impress us with a due sense of our great obligations to God. Nor is there any other basis for solid confidence, even according to the authority of Christ, who, to deliver us from all fear, and render us invincible amidst so many dangers, snares, and deadly conflicts, promises to preserve in safety all whom the Father has committed to His care. *

fordham.edu/halsall/mod/calvin-predest.html
Catholics are not Arminians. Catholic predestination is not God chosing those He foresaw would come to faith.

God Bless,
Michael
 
The Catholic Church teaches the following fundamental principles regarding predestination:

**(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. These three propositions are admitted by all Catholic theologians. **

This is from:

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination4.php

Here is another link on Catholic predestination:

thecatholicfaith.com/Teachings/predestination.htm

God Bless,
Michael
 
Catholics are not Arminians. Catholic predestination is not God chosing those He foresaw would come to faith.

God Bless,
Michael
Michael:

This is what I’ve been trying to say. The view you present is an accurate depiction of the views held by Aquinas and Augustine, which is closer to Calvin’s view than the Arminian view. However, I think it is fair to say that the RCC does not wholly agree with Augustine (they have departed to at least a small extent from the, as I’ve heard it called, the “harsher” elements of Augustine’s doctrines).

For example, the Arminain idea of prevenient grace. I do think the RCC will say that this prevenient grace is universal. Although they, as Arminians, will say that man cannot make any initiative toward God without grace, the church will say this first deposit of grace is given to all. In other words it becomes a series of events that eventually lead to salvation. First, God gives us enough grace to empower us to make a free choice. Then we either choose Christ or we do not. If we do then we are to continue in this state of grace. If we remain in fellowship with God He continues to fill us with grace empowering us to endure. However, the core disagreement between this idea and Calvin’s doctrines are that all aspects of grace are given universally. In other words Calvin believed that while yes there is a common grace, we might think of this as C.S. Lewis did that there is something of God in each one of us. Calvin believed that while there are universal elements of divine grace, “saving” grace is not afforded to all people.

However, before I continue please clarify whether the RCC teaches that God’s saving grace is given to all people or just the elect? I’ve always thought the RCC took the Arminian view with regards to this question, thinking “saving” grace is given to all equally; and then the choice becomes an individual one.
 
Michael:

This is what I’ve been trying to say. The view you present is an accurate depiction of the views held by Aquinas and Augustine, which is closer to Calvin’s view than the Arminian view. However, I think it is fair to say that the RCC does not wholly agree with Augustine (they have departed to at least a small extent from the, as I’ve heard it called, the “harsher” elements of his doctrines).

For example, the Arminain idea of prevenient grace. I do think the RCC will say that this prevenient grace is universal. Although they, as Arminians, will say that man cannot make any initiative toward God without grace, the church will say this first deposit of grace is given to all.

However, before I continue please clarify if this is true or not (I don’t want to begin a discussion on an erroneous assumption). The specific question I have is whether God’s saving grace is given to all people or just the elect?
In this, we follow what was taught by Saint Augustine - and upheld by Martin Luther- namely, that saving grace is not limited to the elect (predestined to glory):

St. Augustine wrote:

Of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. . . . had not both been called and followed him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? . . . In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God’s books lie open, let us not turn away our view. The divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them because they had not been ‘called according to the purpose.’ They had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in him. They had not been predestined according to his purpose who works all things.

We believe that prevenient grace is offered to the elect and non-elect, but that this grace efficaciously ends in eternal glory for the elect alone.

God Bless,
Michael
 
So Cauvin teaches that man has no free will–that men are predestined to salvation or damnation from eternity?
In the first instance Scripture states, and I quote:

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1:4-5).

There are also other verses that make this point clear.

So we can at least say “before the creation of the world” (meaning before Adam & Eve were created) election was completed.

Now this only speaks of salvation & does not speak of predestination to condemnation. However, other verses indicate this, such as:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son (John 3:18).

Condemnation is also presented as a past event, or divine decree.

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed (Acts 13:48).

This verse also makes the doctrine of predestination quite clear. Many were called, however, only those “appointed for eternal life” had faith.

My own view is when we read from the book of James or many passages from John (particularly in his epistles) and we learn that good works should flow from faith and true believers are given a changed heart and will no longer commit the type of sins that “lead to death” this is for the benefit of the faithful, so that they can understand how to rightly preach and how to identify one who is preaching falsely (as well as to know that they are charged with keeping each other in line).

In other words, the faithful didn’t need to be told to be good, we are reborn of God and as such we become good. However, there were many in the early church who felt that Christianity was a permissive religion, which almost encouraged sin (Paul had to deal with these heretics quite often in his ministry). Christians need to be able to identify false teachers and false prophets. So we can know that one who is really saved will avoid sin (to a large extent), they will seek to participate in fellowship with other Christians, but they need to be on guard against these heretics, who are doing the devils work in trying to sift them (Christ warned even Peter that the devil asked God for permission to try and sift him like Job, we see an example of the devil trying to work on Peter when he tells Christ surely you will not be put to death, and Jesus’ harsh response, as well as the three times Peter denied Christ).
 
You said, and I quote:

This is a non-starter for any fruitful discussion. When I object to RCC doctrine, I will always say something like:

I disagree with the role of Mary as depicted by the RCC. Or I disagree with the idea that we can do anything pleasing to God (in terms of works) without first being regenerated. Or I disagree with the idea of intercession or veneration or the use of icons, etc.

I do not make blanket ad hom statements that personalize the argument. It’s logically fallacious and it was a back door insult.
Regardless of how you say it, and you did state that part nicely, it is still your belief(s), not conceived with the full understanding of the Catholic Church’s teachings and interpretations as they have always been. I think most people, when they use “pre-conceived notion” are referring to beliefs that that person has/holds/believes in prior to learning what they are actually saying/teaching/trying to explain. So, you have pre-conceived notions that contrast the Catholic Church’s teachings. Your notions are yours to have. Your set of beliefs and interpretation of Scriptures are contrary to what the Catholic Church has always taught and understood through His Divine Holy Spirit to record in the Bible for ALL generations. Do you really think we don’t understand Sacred Scripture? We gave it to you, to all. And before you deny that, it is factual, historical proof that is waiting for you to read.

Believe whatever you want. I am not going to try to explain myself again. I did that, and you didn’t believe me. That is your choice.

The Catholic Church’s teachings on Mary, works, faith, veneration, intercessory prayer were taught, believed and in practice for hundreds and hundreds of years before your Church came up with what they thought it meant/should be/was wrong. So, you have to understand that we are not going to buy into teachings and beiefs of men that are less than 500 years old and contrary to what Christ’s Church has always taught.
 
In this, we follow what was taught by Saint Augustine - and upheld by Martin Luther- namely, that saving grace is not limited to the elect (predestined to glory):

St. Augustine wrote:

Of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. . . . had not both been called and followed him that called them? And had not both become, from wicked men, justified men and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? . . . In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God’s books lie open, let us not turn away our view. The divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them because they had not been ‘called according to the purpose.’ They had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in him. They had not been predestined according to his purpose who works all things.

We believe that prevenient grace is offered to the elect and non-elect, but that this grace efficaciously ends in eternal glory for the elect alone.

God Bless,
Michael
I agree 100%. Now let’s follow this to its logical conclusion. It cannot be the same grace since one saves and the other does not. So one is an efficacious grace and the other is of a different sort. As it states in Scripture:

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4).


I do not say, and neither did Calvin, that God is responsible for wickedness. However, by not giving efficacious grace to some people they remain a child of the devil. We can only be otherwise with saving grace.

So in other words God saves some and passes over others. Calvin simply took this idea to its logical end. God creates all things, including all people. If His saving (or efficacious) grace is necessary for salvation, and God created some without giving them this salvific grace, then they are predestined for condemnation.
 
Regardless of how you say it, and you did state that part nicely, it is still your belief(s), not conceived with the full understanding of the Catholic Church’s teachings and interpretations as they have always been. I think most people, when they use “pre-conceived notion” are referring to beliefs that that person has/holds/believes in prior to learning what they are actually saying/teaching/trying to explain. So, you have pre-conceived notions that contrast the Catholic Church’s teachings. Your notions are yours to have. Your set of beliefs and interpretation of Scriptures are contrary to what the Catholic Church has always taught and understood through His Divine Holy Spirit to record in the Bible for ALL generations. Do you really think we don’t understand Sacred Scripture? We gave it to you, to all. And before you deny that, it is factual, historical proof that is waiting for you to read.

Believe whatever you want. I am not going to try to explain myself again. I did that, and you didn’t believe me. That is your choice.

The Catholic Church’s teachings on Mary, works, faith, veneration, intercessory prayer were taught, believed and in practice for hundreds and hundreds of years before your Church came up with what they thought it meant/should be/was wrong. So, you have to understand that we are not going to buy into teachings and beiefs of men that are less than 500 years old and contrary to what Christ’s Church has always taught.
Well obviously I view this depiction of the RCC as representing the “right teachings” of Christ (to the exclusion of all other denominations) as extremely elitist. In the first instance longevity proves nothing, in any sense. If it did then let’s all run to our nearest Synagogue (hey, at least we’ve all been circumcised as Americans 🙂 ).

My preference is to actually discuss these points. For example if your entire argument is my beliefs are right because my church says so (and offer no authority or scripture to support your views) then there’s really no point is there?

This is I guess the source of some frustration for me, since I think it is the duty of every Christian to be able to articulate why they are who they are. If I were a Mormon and I were to say it’s right because Brigham Young said so – what would you’re response be? You would be equally frustrated.

When the great Catholic and Protestant theologians debated they didn’t say it’s right because we say so … certainly such tactics defy logic. If we’re a royal priesthood (which we are) then we are charged with defending our doctrines, each to his own ability.
 
I agree 100%. Now let’s follow this to its logical conclusion. It cannot be the same grace since one saves and the other does not. So one is an efficacious grace and the other is of a different sort. As it states in Scripture:

The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4).


I do not say, and neither did Calvin, that God is responsible for wickedness. However, by not giving efficacious grace to some people they remain a child of the devil. We can only be otherwise with saving grace.

So in other words God saves some and passes over others. Calvin simply took this idea to its logical end. God creates all things, including all people. If His saving (or efficacious) grace is necessary for salvation, and God created some without giving them this salvific grace, then they are predestined for condemnation.
The difference is that, as Augustine taught, grace can lead to a person’s justification, but not all those in whom this grace is efficacious in bringing a person to justification will persevere to the end. Moreover, we do not believe in a positve reprobation apart from their sins.

God Bless,
Michael
 
So you and Cauvin also believe that man has no free will?
No – I do think man has a certain level of “will” but it’s not completely free. We were created in the image of God. While we are depraved, we are not bad as some might think badness is defined. Badness is merely corrupted goodness, which is what we are – corrupted goodness.

Without saving grace we can do no good, in God’s eyes. This doesn’t mean we can’t be good according to society. I know plenty of atheists who by all accounts are great people. Are they saved? No they’re not.

Free will is an interesting fallacy. Imagine trying to defend the notion that every man is totally free to do anything. It sounds great, the mass marketers of Christianity like to puff up the human ego in this way. However, is this really the state of mankind?

Try telling the 35 year old guy who grew up in the ghetto to a crack addicted mother and no father (because dad was in prison and was a crack head himself) that if he would have just made the right choices he could have done anything he wanted to. He could have became as rich as Bill Gates, could have been President, etc. I mean what a disservice we do by preaching such untruthful things.

What choices did this individual really have? Certainly not the same choices I had, or I’m guessing you had. Now let’s look at the African in the desert of Ethiopia. How many choices does he really have? Is there any real possibility that he can be Bill Gates one day? I mean be serious – our will is restricted by the cards we are dealt in life. I don’t need theology to tell me this, and nor should anyone. This is a fact, just look around. Now the question becomes who deals the cards? If you believe as I do that God deals the cards then the logic of my doctrine, in my view, becomes clear.
 
The difference is that, as Augustine taught, grace can lead to a person’s justification, but not all those in whom this grace is efficacious in bringing a person to justification will persevere to the end. Moreover, we do not believe in a positve reprobation apart from their sins.

God Bless,
Michael
I understand that there is a marked difference between Augustine and Calvin. Consider this passage:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5).


Now also consider:

*On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (Romans 9:20-22).*

When I look at the idea presented here, I believe it teaches the following:
  1. God knew (foreknew) the elect, personally, before we were even conceived (in fact when taken together with Eph. 1:4-5 we can say He foreknew us before He even created the earth or mankind).
  2. God shapes or builds the elect, even in the womb, as an engineer builds a machine. We can no sooner resist grace than a machine built for producing rolls of paper can fly.
  3. The reprobate were not built in such a way, rather they were passed over, and by doing so were made for the benefit of the elect. So that God could use them to make His power known to us, the elect. They are vessels created for destruction.
I mean this is what the Bible states isn’t it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top