Which church is God's true church? Is it the Roman Catholic Church?

[cazayoux]

This is not a sidebar to the original question, but speaks to its roots.

I agree that it speaks to the root of the question at hand.
But we must take it a step further.
Even if we all used the exact same wording, would there still be confusion.
I believe so.

So what is more important, the wording of this version or that, or the actual understanding of that text? What is the truth of the matter?

I do believe there is truth.
Jesus even referred to Himself as ‘truth’.
Scripture also tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of ‘truth’.

So this brings us right back to the question of this discussion.

What is the true church that protects truth?

michel

 

[PerryJ]

Throughout the Forum, we have seen how easy it is to quote Scripture passages - especially now that we have on-line Bibles.

Note I use the word ‘Bibles’. I am having trouble knowing which Bible is authoritative. There is a ‘Catholic Bible’ (the Douay-Rheims Bible) but it is rarely used, and I have only ever seen one copy. Catholic Churches here use New Jerusalem, sometimes King James and very occasionally Good News.

Beyond that, there are perhaps hundreds of English translations from Hebrew or Greek; there are translations into the myriad languages of the world; and there are translations by lone missionaries into the local vernacular such as Zulu, Xhosa or Sesotho (Southern Africa).

So whose quotation is authoritative? Which do we choose? I am truly troubled here because so much emphasis is placed on the exact wording of the Bible in order to illuminate the Absolute Truth - if there is such.

This is not a sidebar to the original question, but speaks to its roots.

In Christ

You make a wonderful point. Not everyone is capable of being able to read the Bible in it’s original text. Many in this world can not read or own a Bible. Just as when the world existed prior to the Bible being printed. This is one of the reasons God saw fit to have an authoritative Church. The Bible is a later creation. As the Bible is translated individuals put their own spin on the words. For example the Eucharist. The correct translations are often changed to support the individual’s thoughts.

The Bible also has to be read at several levels. We often see thoughts based upon one thought or verse. The Bible has to be understood in it’s entirety. For one to understand topics such as purgatory or the assumption of Mary one has to have thorough understanding of both the Old and New Testaments. Why did God make it so diffcult that one can only understand the basics of the Bible? (Even these are confused by culture etc.) He left the Church behind to teach. As I have stated many times to not believe in the Church is to believe in nothing. Each man reads the Bible and make his own universe. His own rules. Forces God to be at his disposal. Forces God to live by the rules of man. Rules that a man thought up on his own.

Man becomes more knowledgeable, man does not become more enlightened. Each generation of man has to fight the good fight on his own.

 

[Lisdogan]

As I have stated many times to not believe in the Church is to believe in nothing.

That may be your belief but, as a Catholic, it is not mine. As I wrote earlier:

Christ’s Church is surely universal. But humankind is profoundly wounded, complex and fallible in understanding the messages of Jesus of Nazareth. The true Church? Where God is welcome, where Christ is, where the Holy Spirit Parclete surrounds us with Her love. No more, no less. Nothing else matters.

Each man reads the Bible and make his own universe. His own rules. Forces God to be at his disposal. Forces God to live by the rules of man. Rules that a man thought up on his own.

If this means that you think that every Catholic thinks the same as every other of 1.6 billion Catholics, perhaps we should have another think. There are all kinds of ‘beliefs’, preferences, priorities, misunderstandings, hopes and wishes tarted up as faith, customary beliefs integrated with Church teachings among rural faithful in African countries for example.

Is there One True Church? Can we define One Absolute Truth?

Can we truly know God? No, for He is by definition unknowable. We can only, with guidance, seek the truth and with His grace hope to discern a little tiny bit of His Truth.

In Christ

 

[Lisdogan]

I agree that it speaks to the root of the question at hand. But we must take it a step further. Even if we all used the exact same wording, would there still be confusion. I believe so.

So what is more important, the wording of this version or that, or the actual understanding of that text? What is the truth of the matter?

I do believe there is truth. Jesus even referred to Himself as ‘truth’.
Scripture also tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of ‘truth’. So this brings us right back to the question of this discussion. What is the true church that protects truth?

michel

Yes, the logic is complicated!

You may *believe *there is ‘truth’ but that does not mean there *is *‘truth’. And it does not speak to whether there is or is not ‘Absolute Truth’.

And even if there is ‘truth’ or ‘Absolute Truth’, how do we come to *know *it?

Do we know Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; do we know that the Scriptures, being sacred, only speak the truth? Does our **intellect **tell us that these things are ‘true’?

Or are they matters of faith, spiritual beliefs that we prefer to believe are ‘true’ because we have been assured in many, many ways that they are ‘true’? Are they beliefs our faithful **hearts **tell us are ‘true’.

We cannot know whether or not there is an Absolute Truth. Our brains are too small, our understandings too wracked by life’s realities, and our multiverse too great.

In seeking out spiritual ‘truth’ some will prefer to be informed more by faith and heart, and to be guided by the Catholic Church or another denomination. Others will prefer to be informed primarily by intellect and knowledge, to take note of the great teachings of faith - including those of the Catholic Church, other Christian denominations, and other faiths entirely - and hope to gain some headway in glimpsing the Sublime.

It may be that the Catholic Church is primus inter pares (first among equals) but that is for the individual to decide.

In Christ

 

[PerryJ]

That may be your belief but, as a Catholic, it is not mine. As I wrote earlier:

Christ’s Church is surely universal. But humankind is profoundly wounded, complex and fallible in understanding the messages of Jesus of Nazareth. The true Church? Where God is welcome, where Christ is, where the Holy Spirit Parclete surrounds us with Her love. No more, no less. Nothing else matters.

If this means that you think that every Catholic thinks the same as every other of 1.6 billion Catholics, perhaps we should have another think. There are all kinds of ‘beliefs’, preferences, priorities, misunderstandings, hopes and wishes tarted up as faith, customary beliefs integrated with Church teachings among rural faithful in African countries for example.

Is there One True Church? Can we define One Absolute Truth?

Can we truly know God? No, for He is by definition unknowable. We can only, with guidance, seek the truth and with His grace hope to discern a little tiny bit of His Truth.

In Christ

We are now getting into what confuses many. Are we talking technically or are we talking about salvation. Many can be saved. There is just one true Church.

My point wasn’t as much about who is saved as the path to the truth. Man has proven that he can not read and understand the Bible. Your point highlights the need for the one true Church. You state “humankind is profoundly wounded, complex and fallible in understanding the messages of Jesus of Nazareth.” That is why Jesus gave us the Church. That is the point of being Catholic. If one doesn’t believe in the infalliable Church one is only left with man’s suppositions about the world and how to attain salvation.

One should not confuse cultures etc with infallible statements from the Church. We have many different rites etc within the world. When the Church teaches an infallible truth and one rejects it, that person puts themself at risk to be committing grave matter.

 

[catholiconce]

There is a diferrence in the beliefs concerning the Eucharist is there not. Can you tell me what the difference is?

The difference is we believe that that the Bread and wine become the body and Blood of Christ When we par take in Communion. The bread and Wine are if act the true body and Blood of Christ because scripture says that they are ( this is my body and This is my blood). In My parish Comunion is served at each service every Sunday. Some Sundays an altar rail is used. So as in the book of John we are recieveing the Body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. I did have trouble as a catholic understanding how a Priest a mere man could change Bread and wine into Flesh and Blood. As i sit in Church on Sunday and look up at the altar and see the Chalice and the host to me it is the body and blood of christ. Christ is just as present there as he is across the street at the Catholic church. Side note in my small town one couple parks in front of the Catholic Church He gets out of the car and crosses the street and attends the Lutheran church and she attends Catholic mass. 70 minutes latter they both arrive back at the car and head to breakfast. We have 7 Lutheran churches in town and two catholic churches. What I want to know is can any of you really tell me that all of us Lutherans are headed to Hell. Is Garry headed to Hell and his wife to heaven all because of what side of main street they attend church. Christ is present in the Eucharist at 603 and 600 S main. I have attended church on both sides of the street and you can not tell me that those of on the east side of main are any less christian or have any less Blessing from Christ.

 

[catholiconce]

Your posts do concern me. Not all Christians receive the same blessings. Many Protestant Churches only believe in two sacraments. Others do not believe in the Eucharist the same way as we believe. If you leave the faith I hope you have researched what you are leaving and what you are going to. I am not trying to be critical in this post. Your posts shows that perhaps you did not fully understand the Catholic Faith and that concerns me.

Have you ever read a book by Pope Benedict? He is a very loving man. He is certainly not what is portrayed by the media. His statement concerning the other faith was not an indictment as the media was trying to portray. He was simply stating that they did not have apostolic succession. He did not say all separated brethren where going to Hell. If one has read the Catechism of the Catholic Faith you know that he did not state this. Have you read the Catechism to make sure you are aware of what you are refuting? It would appear from some of your posts that you do not understand the faith. I am again not trying to be critical.

The Catechism and the Pope may believe that "seperated brotheran are not going to Hell but some of the posters on the fourm claim that we are. THis Idea that to leave the RCC is leaving Christ just is not so. I was a Roman Catholic for forty two years I did not understand what and why Lutherans beleived . I had taken for granted all that I was taught. One Sunday I attend a Lutheran service and went to thier Education hour and now I see things differantly now. Many of you have never been to other christian services. you base what you think you know on what somebody else told you what they wanted you to beleive. Jesus will meet us where we are To beleive in Christ is to be part of his church the church he founded the universal catholic church. That is what matters.

 

[Cinette]

This discussion, as noted, just runs and runs. I have posted elsewhere ((Why don’t Protestant/Bible Only Christians understand the Catholic Church?) something that I hope is worth repeating here:

'Some of us are born into our faith. Some of us make choices, often based on intellect + heart. We usually all end up with a bag of understanding of bits - but not all - of our Christian faith, Catholic or Protestant.

‘Not all Catholics, for example, understand exactly the same meaning of the Nicene Creed. Not all Protestants lie. Not all Catholics believe Heaven exists in the sky. Not all Protestants use crackers and grapejuice for communion. Not all Catholics put veneration of Mary at the top of their religious bag. Not all Protestants are called to action on improving the quality of life of others, as Jesus taught; nor are they all committed to getting as rich as they can as fast as they can - typical now of many of West African Protestant Churches and spreading through the rest of Africa. Not all Catholics understand exactly the meaning of ‘transubstantiation’. Not all Protestants can read - and so must have the Bible interpreted for them, just as do Catholics.’

Christ’s Church is surely universal. But humankind is profoundly wounded, complex and fallible in understanding the messages of Jesus of Nazareth.

The true Church? Where God is welcome, where Christ is, where the Holy Spirit Parclete surrounds us with Her love. No more, no less. Nothing else matters.

In Christ

Thank you for your wonderful comments. You are so right and gracious.

I live in Johannesburg and attend two Parishes - Rosebank and Braamfontein!

Thank you again :yup:

:clapping:

 

[Reformed]

Luke 22 19:20 "and he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “this is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me” and then “this cup which is poured out for you is the new convenant in my blood” Christ does not state this represent, it kinda is he says this IS my body. If it wasn’t his body why did so many lose faith and leave. Would they have lost faith if he was just asking them to eat bread as a symbol? No.

1 Corinthians 11:27-30 "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgement upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill and some have died.

Note in John’s gospel he doesn’t use the term "phago’ which is the generic term for eat. He use the more explicit “trogo” which liuterally means to eat. To eat his body.

This is an example that shows you need to know who translsated your bible. Many Protestant Bibles have mistranslated verses to support their version of theology.

Do you believe in the Eucharist? Do you need me to give more truth?

Before you change the subject or quote some Bible verses that do not pertain to this discussion. Answer two questions. Why did people leave the Lord when he professed this? How do you explain the use of the term “trogo” that specifically explains to eat his body. It is only used twice in the Gospels and both times it is specifically refering to the Eucharist.

Protestants and Roman Catholics believe in the sacraments of baptism and the communion (Lord’s supper, Eucharist). Those are the two sacraments found in the Bible. How do you come up with more sacraments according to the Bible?

 

[MDK]

Oh I am sure you will .I am just glad That you do not know where I live. I am sure their is a Lutheran across the alley or the up the BLock. DO you have to use this fourm now to vent your hatred for others because of some restraining order or something. You act as if God Is telling you to attack others on these threads. What is up with that. I be back in about 14 hours to read your venting response.

God does love you, so please accept His love and be thankful for it. I pray for you, that you may find peace and know the true God, and at some point discern what your life means. Everyone who knows me, respects and loves me. I hope someday, you can share in that joy.

Please forgive me if I don’t respond to you further, as you just went on my ignore list.

 

[MDK]

I’ll give it a try.

Thank you, and nice job on good quoting skills!

Yes. I keep getting different answers from all kinds of issues from catholics. Not all catholics believe the same thing.

What matters is the official teaching of the Church. Neither God’s word, nor the Dogma nor doctrine are subject to a democratic vote of us lay Catholics.

Christ.

Yes.

Peter-- see verse 19

Yes, this was in Matthew 16:19.

One

Yes.

One

Yes.

There was a purpose.

Yes.

* As recorded in Matthew 16:18, how many Apostles were told they were the rock of the Church to correspond with their name change?

One

Yes.

What does this mean and how do we see this working out in the rest of Scripture?

Screech… derailed…
How could you answer the previous questions and go off the rails? For example, you correctly answered “one” to the previous question of “how many Apostles were told they were the rock of the Church to correspond with their name change?” If that’s the case, then how could you not understand that the rock of the Church, Peter would not be the one the others looked to for the true and final word? As you correctly identified, Peter was the only one given the position of rock of the Church. No other Apostle was made rock of the Church by Christ. If they were all equal, they would have all been given the position of rock of the Church, but were not. There needed to be one “Prime Minister” in charge when the King went back home. This rock of the Church is the visible unity which supports Christ’s desire that we all be one. Otherwise, you end up with everyone and their brother making doctrine and dogma, and what would happen to oneness if that were to take place, perhaps 100’s of years later?

All the Apostles knew what Christ did in Matthew 16 with Peter. If you want to follow them, and follow Christ, it’s your turn to understand.

Where in Scripture do we see the apostles deferring to Peter as thee supreme head of the church?

This sentence you responded to belonged with the one previous, as they were one in my post. First, why don’t you believe the Words of Christ and understand what He did? The other Apostles don’t sit around waiting for Peter to give them instructions, as that’s not the point. Peter is the visible symbol of unity, as it’s not a freelance or free for all with everyone doing their own thing. When Peter speaks, the matter is settled. This is a topic for greater discussion and another post, because it is more than a support for this post, and it goes into some discussion and depth.

You agreed that the name change signified a mission. What was Peter’s mission, and why didn’t the other Apostles also have a name change?

Is there any indications in the NT that any apostle looked upon or states the Peter is the Prince of the Apostles?
Is these anything in any of the letters that makes you think that the other apostles thought of him as the guradian of the flock? I can’t think of one verse to support this. In fact Paul mentions that false teachers would come in among the disciples but he never mentions anything about Peter protecting them. Perhaps he was unaware of this.

Paul is very aware of what Christ established, as are the other Apostles. If you think the Bible is a step by step “how to” for an outline of Parliamentary procedure or should be as easy as an org chart at a company, this a problem for you… but not for me. The Scriptures were written primarily for people who were already Christian.

This goes way beyond what the Scriptures say about him.

It is indeed what God has established in the office of rock of the Church, which is more than simply an Apostle of no other special position or purpose… he’s the one the other Apostles must look to as rock of the Church, because this is what Christ showed them he was. I don’t know that it’s fair to expect this 2000 years ago to be on someone’s laptop computer being posted on the internet and blogged about by Church members. The Church was under construction by Christ, but the DNA for it was already established by Him. Christ established a visible head through which the Holy Spirit would protect the Church from teaching error in faith and morals, and thereby preserve the deposit of faith from Christ, keeping true to His teachings, and preventing heresy from taking the place of His Word. The gates of hell would never prevail against His Church, and have not, and never will. This is what Christ established, and thanks be to God.

 

[Lisdogan]

Thank you for your wonderful comments. You are so right and gracious.

I live in Johannesburg and attend two Parishes - Rosebank and Braamfontein!

Thank you again :yup:

:clapping:

Jabulani! This is ubuntu.

I am St John Fisher, Lynwood, Pretoria, Msgr Marc de Muelenaere, and Bishop Daniel Verstraete (ret) Good Shepherd Retreat Magaliesburg.

Blessings in Christ in this far part of the CAF world!

 

[PerryJ]

Protestants and Roman Catholics believe in the sacraments of baptism and the communion (Lord’s supper, Eucharist). Those are the two sacraments found in the Bible. How do you come up with more sacraments according to the Bible?

Not all Protestant believe in the Body and Blood of Christ. Many believe it is a symbol and nothing more. Do you believe it is truly the Body and Blood or a symbol?

 

[jay29]

Protestants and Roman Catholics believe in the sacraments of baptism and the communion (Lord’s supper, Eucharist). Those are the two sacraments found in the Bible. How do you come up with more sacraments according to the Bible?

Anointing of the Sick:

James 5:13-15

The Prayer of Faith

13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Clear as day.

 

[PerryJ]

The difference is we believe that that the Bread and wine become the body and Blood of Christ When we par take in Communion. The bread and Wine are if act the true body and Blood of Christ because scripture says that they are ( this is my body and This is my blood). In My parish Comunion is served at each service every Sunday. Some Sundays an altar rail is used. So as in the book of John we are recieveing the Body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. I did have trouble as a catholic understanding how a Priest a mere man could change Bread and wine into Flesh and Blood. As i sit in Church on Sunday and look up at the altar and see the Chalice and the host to me it is the body and blood of christ. Christ is just as present there as he is across the street at the Catholic church. Side note in my small town one couple parks in front of the Catholic Church He gets out of the car and crosses the street and attends the Lutheran church and she attends Catholic mass. 70 minutes latter they both arrive back at the car and head to breakfast. We have 7 Lutheran churches in town and two catholic churches. What I want to know is can any of you really tell me that all of us Lutherans are headed to Hell. Is Garry headed to Hell and his wife to heaven all because of what side of main street they attend church. Christ is present in the Eucharist at 603 and 600 S main. I have attended church on both sides of the street and you can not tell me that those of on the east side of main are any less christian or have any less Blessing from Christ.

I need some help in understanding this concept from a Lutheran perspective. I was under the belief, that may be wrong, that some Lutherans believed it was the Body and Blood of Christ. Others did not. This I thought was based upon their synod.

I also thought that when they believe in the Body and Blood they believe that the substance enters at the time of acceptance and then leaves. A Catholic believes that the substance remains and as such we believe Christ remains in the Body and Blood.

Do Lutherans have apostolic succession as Catholics know it? I was under the assumption that they do not.

Priests do not perform the miracle of transubstantiation. Christ does this miracle through a priest. There are many verses in the bible that demonstrate a priest doing these actions. For this post we can leave that for later.

Concerning condemantion only God knows who goes to heaven and hell. With that said we believe that one has a better chance as a Catholic as one knows or is at least exposed to the fullness of Christ teachings. I believe that certainly some Protestants will get in and some Catholics will not. Not that I know; but that is my understanding. The Church hasn’t even stated Judas will not get into heaven. I am sure they are not passing judgment on the people you mention.

 

[Reformed]

Not all Protestant believe in the Body and Blood of Christ. Many believe it is a symbol and nothing more. Do you believe it is truly the Body and Blood or a symbol?

There are several views of communion and baptism within Christendom. However, Christians agree that we should partake in these two sacraments. I am asking how do you come up with more than two sacraments than what is spoken about in the Bible. Doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church teach that there are 9 or 12 sacraments? What is the basis of the additional sacraments that is not spoken about in the Bible?

 

[Reformed]

I need some help in understanding this concept from a Lutheran perspective. I was under the belief, that may be wrong, that some Lutherans believed it was the Body and Blood of Christ. Others did not. This I thought was based upon their synod.

I also thought that when they believe in the Body and Blood they believe that the substance enters at the time of acceptance and then leaves. A Catholic believes that the substance remains and as such we believe Christ remains in the Body and Blood.

Do Lutherans have apostolic succession as Catholics know it? I was under the assumption that they do not.

Priests do not perform the miracle of transubstantiation. Christ does this miracle through a priest. There are many verses in the bible that demonstrate a priest doing these actions. For this post we can leave that for later.

Concerning condemantion only God knows who goes to heaven and hell. With that said we believe that one has a better chance as a Catholic as one knows or is at least exposed to the fullness of Christ teachings. I believe that certainly some Protestants will get in and some Catholics will not. Not that I know; but that is my understanding. The Church hasn’t even stated Judas will not get into heaven. I am sure they are not passing judgment on the people you mention.

Concerning condemnation and who goes to Heaven or Hell, what is the reason that some Catholics and some Protestants will be in Heaven?

 

[jay29]

There are several views of communion and baptism within Christendom. However, Christians agree that we should partake in these two sacraments. I am asking how do you come up with more than two sacraments than what is spoken about in the Bible. Doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church teach that there are 9 or 12 sacraments? What is the basis of the additional sacraments that is not spoken about in the Bible?

Can you read?
Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick:

James 5:13-15

The Prayer of Faith

13Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Clear as day.

 

[jay29]

I am asking how do you come up with more than two sacraments than what is spoken about in the Bible. Doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church teach that there are 9 or 12 sacraments? What is the basis of the additional sacraments that is not spoken about in the Bible?

Can you read?

Sacrament of Reconciliation:
****John 20:22-23
**
22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."**

Clear as day.

 

[Reformed]

Can you read?

Sacrament of Reconciliation:
****John 20:22-23
**
22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."**

Clear as day.

Are you trying to say only Roman Catholic Priests can forgive sins? Only God forgives sins through Christ alone. All Christians are given the ministry of reconciliation. It is not a sacrament but a ministry. Here is the Word of God for further reflection on the ministry of reconciliation…

The Ministry of Reconciliation

Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Cor 5