Which Church is it?

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THE CHURCH
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church
Mt 18:17 - if he refuses to listen even to the Church…
Mt 28:18-20 - go baptize and teach all nations
Mk 16:15-16 - go to whole world and proclaim gospel
Lk 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me.
Jn 14:16, 26 - Holy Spirit with you always, teach/remind you of everything
Jn 16:13 - Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth.
1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The Church is the body of Christ
Col 1:18 - He is the head of the body, the church.
1 Cor 12:20-27 - you are Christ’s body, individually parts of it.
Eph 5:30 - we are members of His body.
Rom 12:4-5 - though many, we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 - Don’t you know your bodies are members of Christ?

The Church must be one
Jn 10:16 - there will be one fold and one shepherd.
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
1Cor 1:10 - I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
1Cor 12:13 - in one spirit we are baptized into one body
Rom 12:5 - we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to be one hope
Col 3:15 - the peace into which you were called in one body
Mt 16:18-19 - upon this rock I will build my Church (singular)
Mt 18:17 - tell it to THE Church; if he refuses to listen even to THE Church… (must be visible)

Apostolic Church
Jn 15;16 - Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles
Jn 20:21 - Jesus gave the Apostles his own mission
Lk 22:29-3 - Jesus gave them a kingdom
Mt 16:18 - Jesus built Church on Peter, the rock
Jn 10:16 - one shepherd to shepherd Christ’s sheep
Lk 22:32, Jn 21:17 - Peter appointed to be chief shepherd
Eph 4;11 - church leaders are hierarchical
1Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17 - identifies roles of bishops, priests, deacons
Tit 1:5 - commission for bishops to ordain priests

Authoritative Church
Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles
Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin
1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist)
Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christ’s voice
Mt 18:18 - power to legislate
Mt 18:17 - power to discipline

Infallible Church
Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth
Jn 14:26 - Holy Spirit to teach & remind them of everything
Lk 10:16 - speak with Christ’s own voice
1Tim 3:15 - Church called “pillar and foundation of truth”
1Jn 2:27 - anointing of Holy Spirit remains in you
Acts 15:28 - Apostles speak with voice of Holy Spirit
Mt 28:20 - I am with you

Perpetual Church
Is 9:6-7 - of Christ’s government there will be no end
Dan 2:44 - God’s kingdom shall stand forever
Dan 7:14 - His kingdom shall not be destroyed
Eph 3:21 - to him be glory in the church to all generations for ever & ever
Lk 1:32, 33 - no end to Christ’s kingdom
Mt 7:24 - Jesus is like a wise man who built his house on a rock
Mt 13:24-30 - let wheat & weeds grow together until harvest
Mt 16:18 - gates of hell will never prevail against Christ’s church
Jn 14:16 - Holy Spirit will be with you always
Mt 28:19-20 - I am with you all days

PAPACY & APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION
Primacy of Peter
Mt 16:18 - upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church
Mt 16;19 - give you keys of the kingdom; power to bind & loose
Lk 22:32 - Peter’s faith will strengthen his brethren
Jn 21:17 - given Christ’s flock as chief shepherd
Mk 16:7 - angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
Lk 24:34 - risen Jesus first appeared to Peter
Acts 1:13-26 - headed meeting which elected Matthias
Acts 2:14 - led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost
Acts 2:41 - received first converts
Acts 3:6-7 - performed first miracle after Pentecost
Acts 5:1-11 - inflicted first punishment: Ananias & Saphira
Acts 8:21 - excommunicated first heretic, Simon Magnus
Acts 10:44-46 - received revelation to admit Gentiles into Church
Acts 15:7 - led first council in Jerusalem
Acts 15:19 - pronounces first dogmatic decision
Gal 1:18 - after conversion, Paul visits chief Apostle
*Gal 2:11-14 - I opposed Cephas to his face for his hypocrisy
Peter’s name always heads list of Apostles: Mt 10;14; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13
“Peter and his companions” Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7
Spoke for Apostles - Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 8:45; 12:41; Jn 6:69
Peter’s name occurs 195 times, more than all the rest put together

Apostolic Succession
2 Chr 19:11 - high priest is over you in everything of Lord’s
Mal 2:7 - seek instruction from priest, he is God’s messenger
Eph 2:20 - Church built upon foundation of apostles & prophets
Eph 4:11 - God gave some as apostles, others as prophets…
1 Cor 12:28-29 - God designated in church: apostles, …
Acts 1:20 - let another take his office
Acts 1:25-26 - Matthias takes Judas’ apostolic ministry
1 Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17 - qualifications for: bishops, priests, & deacons
1Tim 4:14 - gift conferred with the laying on of hands
1Tim 5:22 - do not lay hands too readily on anyone
Acts 14:23 - they appointed presbyters in each church
2Tim 2:2 - what you heard from me entrust to faithful teachers
Titus 1:5 - appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed
Just a friendly reminder - Could you please stop posting other people’s material without linking or referring to the source? It is called plagiarism and aside from being unethical, it is against forum rules. There is a whole discussion going on about other people that do this, in case you want to read more about what others think of this practice. Thank you. 🙂

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=358428
 
Would you consider the fathers of the Church to be experts? As a general rule, Orthodox use what we call the consensus patrum or consensus of the fathers in regards to the beliefs of the Church. St. Vincent of Lérins said it so eloquently:
That is to say (and I’m paraphrasing here) “the faith held everywhere, always and by all.”

Oftentimes, I have found that “scholars” who have made these claims about the early Church in recent years generally do have some sort of bias one way or another. In my opinion the fathers of the Church are great witnesses to a belief in something, not any “scholar” today who has an agenda to discredit the early Church or Christianity in general.

Orthodox have always considered themselves the true Church. 👍 There’s a saying in Orthodoxy in regards to God’s grace: “We know where the Church is, but we do not know where it is not.” In other words, we believe the Orthodox Church to hold the faith that Christ gave to His Apostles, but we do not limit where God sends His grace to others who have not found the Orthodox Church.

I think I understand what you are saying about the forming of different denominations. However, by the very fact that they founded their church don’t you think they, in a way, declared that they had the entire truth and were the true Church? After all, why would they have founded it in the first place and broke off from what they broke off of?

In Christ,
Andrew
Generally I would not consider ECF to be experts. There is little to claim that they were. There are older sources and that is about all we can say. As we travel further back in time, we get a looser and looser definition of what is considered “history”. While many consider Herodotus as very worthwhile on many levels, few would argue he can be accepted as a truthful account of facts. The further back we go, the more we deal with myth, hearsay, and even less as “fact.”

It seems to be a general misconception on the part of apologists that actual historians and biblical experts are about the business of trying to destroy faith. That is a mere fallacy. Nobody spends all the time and money going through undergrad, graduate, and doctorial work only to have an agenda to by lie and so forth destroy a faith. That is simply silly. In any case, such evidence could never stand up to the critical analysis all such work is subject too world wide, unless you posit some worldwide scheme that is kept secret among thousands of scholars.

Bart Ehrman in his books has been quite candid that he no longer is a believer, but a agnostic. But he makes it quite clear in his books that he is not so by virtue of the truth he has uncovered about the bible. Many of his colleagues are believers and he seems nothing odd about that. His reasons for rejecting Christianity have to do with how such awful pain and misery can be allowed by a just God. While I personally don’t agree that the two can’t be reconciled, he is quite clear it has nothing to do with facing the truth about the bible. In fact scholars help us recover the real Jesus behind all the stuff of church, and help us reclaim our duty as followers.

No one can of course be free from bias, but I find that most scholars are very up front in defining what they believe and where they come from. It’s part of how you do this work. At least that is how I was instructed when I did graduate work at a Catholic college. I was instructed to state my “lens” so that my readers clearly could see my preconceived notions. I find that most scholars seem to do that quite well, and as best they can present their findings dispassionately.

If you say your church believes it is the ONE, I certainly won’t argue with you. But I still disagree that because one believes that a church fails to properly interpret that it must mean that they are correct in all ways. It is arrogant to make such claims in my view,but of course I admit it is my view.
 
Yes well he may, but the vast vast majority of scholars still claim Markan priority as you well know. And nobody other than the orthodox apologists believe that Matthew, was the actual apostle. Someone wrote in his name or their own, but they wrote in the area of 80-85 CE.
I was taught Markan priority in high school, and at the time I accepted it as “gospel truth.” But, Markan priority doesn’t even begin to explain how the Synoptic Problem may be solved in a way consistent with the ancient historians, modern methods of literary analysis and Dei Verbum – which is why I now have a problem accepting Markan priority as a valid theory.
I merely answered the questioned posed as I believe it. I don’t and have not find it fruitful to make proofs to orthodox apologistic Catholics who deny all sources they disagree with as “liberal” anyway. Long hours of research only to be ignored has convinced me not to try. The evidence is clearly available since it is the majority opinion. You may of course believe as you wish which you will undoubtedly do.
But as you know, just because something is the majority opinion doesn’t make it right 🙂 Roe v. Wade, anyone?

Here is a web site for the Two Gospel Hypothesis – maintained by Protestant scholars who “have found the widely accepted ‘Two Document Hypothesis’ * unsatisfactory as an explanation of the literary phenomena that are observed when the first three gospels are compared with each other.”

Here is another explanation* (by Protestant theologians) of why the Two Gospel Hypothesis is significant.

Finally, here’s one reason why orthodox apologistic Catholics might be inclined to “deny all sources they disagree with as ‘liberal’ anyway” … From page 120 of The Gospel of Jesus by William Reuben Farmer (who was Professor of New Testament * Emeritus,* at Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas.):
In this case, the difference can be measured in terms of how the Two-Source Hypothesis affects the scriptural basis for a belief that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. In a phrase, the Two-Source Hypotheses weakens scriptural support for this belief. It does this by underscoring that Jesus’ assurance that the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church is not found in the Gospel of Mark. This assurance is also not found in Q. It is not attested in either of the two earliest and most reliable sources, assuming the validity of the Two-Source Hypothesis.
The same can be said about the tradition in which Jesus promises to give the keys of the kingdom to Peter. The Two-Source Hypothesis also weakens scriptural support for the belief that authority in the church is in some unique way related to the person of Peter. All those who doubt that Jesus made this promise to Peter will find support for their reservations, assuming the validity of the Two-Source Hypothesis, because these words are absent from both Mark and Q. Conversely, Christians who hold that Jesus promised to give Peter the keys find scriptural support for this conclusion under the Two Gospel Hypothesis *. *
I’m sure there are a lot of well-intentioned scholars, Catholic and Protestant alike, who consider almost exclusively the results of “modern methods of literary analysis” and who have come to believe the Markan priority theory. Whether or not they consider themselves “liberal” and whether or not they think they have an axe to grind, there’s no getting around the reason why the Markan priority theory spread as rapidly as it did among Lutheran, Anglican, and other Protestant theologians beginning in the mid- to late-19th century… namely, they did have at the time a vested interest in undermining the scriptural basis for the Catholic Church’s authority.
I really have no axe to grind here, since it is unimportant to me who was first. I simply follow the experts. Theide’s work is highly controversial and not agreed to by most other experts. I believe you are incorrect in your assertion. He originally dated the material to before 70 as I understand and has since redated it to late 1st century. But I’m surely no expert, and certainly not of his work which as I said, is highly controversial. If he were mainstream I would surely pay more attention. But I have no need or desire to evoke Matthew primacy as for some odd reason so many here do.
See above for the “odd reason” (i.e. something about a Rock, the gates of hell, and the keys of the kingdom).

Thiede actually argued that since the main comparative script (from Nahal Hever) is generally dated no later than AD 50, the possibility of a date around the middle of the first century for the Magdalen papyrus would be possible. Matthew D’Ancona even says as much in the book he co-wrote with Thiede, Eyewitness to Christ:

“…Yet Thiede…argued that they * were of astonishingly early origin, dating from the mid-first century A.D…”

This review of that book* even describes how Thiede arrived at that date:

“…Thiede reexamined the fragments, using state-of-the-art electronic scanners with close analysis of the paper, ink, letter formation, line length, and other factors to redate the fragments to around A.D. 60. Thiede’s tests and skill appear to be well within responsible papyrology, although his conclusions have met with strong opposition from critics…”

Of course Thiede’s work is “highly controversial and not agreed to by most other experts” – in no small part because of its implications for the “mainstream” Markan priority theory.
 
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