Which Church teachings do you struggle to accept?

[Bookcat]

Your reasoning, not mine.

Jim

No.
Yours.

Your wanting the Church to change what has been defined so others will not be “offended” if they happen to run across those words.

Jesus himself said things like

and no one who comes to me without hating mother and father and children …can be my disciple… if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out…

And on topic – -Jesus said - *those who do not believe will be *condemned…

etc etc etc

All of which need to be understood in the context of what he meant - understood as the Church understands such (one does not literally hate ones mother…that is a figure of speech etc there can be those who are saved who have not explicitly believed in Jesus etc etc)

Shall we change his words?

Nor do we change the way His Body the Church has *under the Guidance of HIM - via the Holy Spirit *has defined the Teaching regarding the his Body the Church.

No in both cases we explain what is meant (which is exactly what IS done when the Teaching is presented about the Church in the Catechism etc etc)

 

[Bookcat]

Your reasoning, not mine.

Jim

No.
Yours.

Your wanting the Church to change what has been defined so others will not be “offended” if they happen to run across those words.

Jesus himself said things like

—and no one who comes to me without hating mother and father and children …can be my disciple…

And on topic – -Jesus said in the Gospel - *those who do not believe will be *condemned…

etc etc etc

Shall we change his words?

For people can be offended…misunderstand…

All of which need to be understood in the context of what he meant - understood as the Church understands such (one does not literally hate ones mother…that is a figure of speech etc there can be those who are saved who have not explicitly believed in Jesus etc etc)

Nor do we change the way His Body the Church has *under the Guidance of HIM - via the Holy Spirit *has defined the Teaching regarding the his Body the Church.

No in both cases we explain what is meant (which is exactly what IS done when the Teaching is presented about the Church in the Catechism etc etc)

 

[Tomdstone]

The church does NOT teach that unbaptised infants go to hell.

How do you explain what both the Catechism of Pope Pius X says and what the Baltimore catechism says?

 

[Tomdstone]

That is NOT a Church teaching. The Church teaches that only humans have an immortal soul. That means the souls of animals cease to exist when the animals die.

That is what I struggle to accept. People here are saying that their animals will be in heaven, and the Pope said so, which implies that their pets will live for all eternity in heaven. The only way you can live for all eternity is to have an immortal soul. I thought that only humans have immortal souls. To say that animals have immortals souls would seem to be a change in Catholic teaching.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Bookcat

Yours.

Your wanting the Church to change what has been defined so others will not be “offended” if they happen to run across those words.

I never said that, and in fact said I was not looking for the Church to change the doctrine.

Obviously, you’re not able to see my point.

Jesus himself said things like

and no one who comes to me without hating mother and father and children …can be my disciple…

So you believe Jesus is saying to ignore the 4th Commandment, to honor thy father and mother ?

. if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out…

Jesus meant this Literally ? I don’t see any Cardinals or Bishops missing their eyes and I’m sure their eyes have seen things they know were sinful to look at.

And on topic – -Jesus said in the Gospel - *those who do not believe will be *condemned…

After being revealed who Jesus is if they reject him, they will not have life.

But this is not about the statement “no salvation outside the Church,” which I’m addressing.

He didn’t say that those in 2015 who don’t belong to the institutional Roman Catholic Church will not be saved.

In fact he promised that those who believe in Him and did what he commanded, would be saved.

But that’s besides the point of what I’m making.

Obviously, people who read the Bible require guidance in understanding Jesus words correctly.

However, when the Church makes a statement cart blanche, “no salvation outside the Church,” especially with a history of division between Catholics, Christians and non-Christians, she needs to do so in a way that help people to hear what is meant.

How Jesus brings a person to faith is by His will, not ours.

Faith is more than just believing church doctrine on it’s face value. As Pope Francis said, we kneed to be listening to the Holy Spirit, not just obtain theological degrees.

Jim

 

[Tomdstone]

Bookcat

I never said that, and in fact said I was not looking for the Church to change the doctrine.

Obviously, you’re not able to see my point which is common for you. You have some sort of mental block toward anything I post and over-react to it.

So you believe Jesus is saying to ignore the 4th Commandment, to honor thy father and mother ?

Jesus meant this Literally ? I don’t see any Cardinals or Bishops missing their eyes and I’m sure their eyes have seen things they know were sinful to look at.

After being revealed who Jesus is if they reject him, they will not have life.

But this is not about the statement “no salvation outside the Church,” which I’m addressing.

He didn’t say that those in 2015 who don’t belong to the institutional Roman Catholic Church will not be saved.

In fact he promised that those who believe in Him and did what he commanded, would be saved.

But that’s besides the point of what I’m making.

Obviously, people who read the Bible require guidance in understanding Jesus words correctly.

However, when the Church makes a statement cart blanche, “no salvation outside the Church,” especially with a history of division between Catholics, Christians and non-Christians, she needs to do so in a way that help people to hear what is meant.

How Jesus brings a person to faith is by His will, not ours.

Faith is more than just believing church doctrine on it’s face value. As Pope Francis said, we kneed to be listening to the Holy Spirit, not just obtain theological degrees.

Jim

We read: “It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII (ca. 1235–1303), in Unam Sanctam

 

[JimR-OCDS]

We read: “It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII (ca. 1235–1303), in Unam Sanctam

Literally, even Pope Alexander VI ?

Jim

 

[Bookcat]

So you believe Jesus is saying to ignore the 4th Commandment, to honor thy father and mother ?

Jesus meant this Literally ? I don’t see any Cardinals or Bishops missing their eyes and I’m sure their eyes have seen things they know were sinful to look at.

Your making my point. Go read again my post.

We do not edit such we explain what it means.

 

[Bookcat]

After being revealed who Jesus is if they reject him, they will not have life.

He did not say that.

Yes we need to explain many things -that is part of what the Church is for.

But one could apply your words to his there:

The quote is outdated for when it’s used it insults people of other religions and the Church has to go through explanation gymnastics.

Jim

Now I know that you do not of course actually say such nor would you think it.

I note this to make the point. People could apply the same criteria to it.

The Church has defined that formulation as I recall…and we do not change the defined Teaching -but what the Church DOES do is always put it in the right context with the fuller explanation. Of what the Church means by this teaching.

 

[Bookcat]

However, when the Church makes a statement cart blanche, “no salvation outside the Church,” especially with a history of division between Catholics, Christians and non-Christians, she needs to do so in a way that help people to hear what is meant.

And the Church as I noted does not do that.

The Church always gives the context of the quote in the Catechism, the Compendium, Pope St. John Paul II who gave audiences at length on such…

Anyone who is saved - is saved by Jesus Christ and in relation to his Church - even if they have never heard of him or his Church or have mistaken views of such etc etc …

As I noted whenever this the Teaching “Outside the Church…” is expressed more is said by the Church on the matter than just stating the ancient phrase.

For example the Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI:

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?

846-848

This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

(and this too is in a particular section surrounded by more information)

 

[Bookcat]

We read: “It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII (ca. 1235–1303), in Unam Sanctam

Yes but what is meant? It is not meant that one must absolutely be say a Catholic…

Nor does “outside the Church there is not salvation” mean that either.

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI:

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?

846-848

This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

(and this too is in a particular section surrounded by more information)

Anyone who is saved - is saved by Jesus Christ and yes in relation to his Church – even if they have never heard of him or his Church or have mistaken views of such etc etc …

 

[Rau]

Yes but what is meant? It is not meant that one must absolutely be say a Catholic…

Nor does “outside the Church there is not salvation” mean that either.

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI:

171. What is the meaning of the affirmation “Outside the Church there is no salvation”?

846-848

This means that all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her. At the same time, thanks to Christ and to his Church, those who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ and his Church but sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, try to do his will as it is known through the dictates of conscience can attain eternal salvation.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

(and this too is in a particular section surrounded by more information)

Anyone who is saved - is saved by Jesus Christ and yes in relation to his Church – even if they have never heard of him or his Church or have mistaken views of such etc etc …

A related idea: were it not for the Church, would any one of us have heard of Jesus of Nazareth?

 

[kozlosap]

A related idea: were it not for the Church, would any one of us have heard of Jesus of Nazareth?

Very simple - NO

 

[Rau]

NO

That’s right.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

I’ve been blessed with the grace to accept without dissent all Church teachings.

Following them consistently is the greater challenge.

 

[JesusEstelle]

That one unrepented sin will lead to hell. Missing mass is a m sin.so if i missed mass amd didnt confess and die id go to hell.?

 

[cena]

That one unrepented sin will lead to hell. Missing mass is a m sin.so if i missed mass amd didnt confess and die id go to hell.?

If you had perfect contrition or you had a good reason for not attending mass (you got sick, impossibility, etc) no

 

[Tomdstone]

That one unrepented sin will lead to hell. Missing mass is a m sin.so if i missed mass amd didnt confess and die id go to hell.?

This is something that also bothers me. Suppose that a person leads a good life, gives to charity, is faithful to his wife, spends time every day teaching his children, helps out at the local orphanage as a volunteer, but inexcusably one Sunday he misses Mass and then is hit by a car and dies. His one mortal sin would then condemn him to hell. On the other hand, suppose that a person leads a life of crime, ruining reputations of others by indulging in false gossip, and beats his wives, having been divorced several times already, indulges in adulterous affairs, abandons his children, and kills his last wife. He then is put in jail and is subject to the death penalty for his horrific crimes. He also captures, tortures and kills a guard while in jail. However, one hour before the scheduled execution, a priest hears his confession, and knowing that he is about to die, the criminal confesses and his sins are pardoned. He says prayers, given to him by the priest, which allow him to receive several indulgences, thus shortening or even possibly eliminating any time in Purgatory. He is then executed and is saved because of his last minute repentance.
Should it be your whole life or should it be what your state is at the last minute before your death which determines whether or not you will be saved?

 

[oneofmany]

Which Church teachings do you struggle to accept?

Shouldn’t your question be restated as, “Which teachings of the bible do you struggle to accept”? The Church didn’t make up these teachings by themselves, they are based on God’s word.

 

[oneofmany]

This is something that also bothers me. Suppose that a person leads a good life, gives to charity, is faithful to his wife, spends time every day teaching his children, helps out at the local orphanage as a volunteer, but inexcusably one Sunday he misses Mass and then is hit by a car and dies. His one mortal sin would then condemn him to hell. On the other hand, suppose that a person leads a life of crime, ruining reputations of others by indulging in false gossip, and beats his wives, having been divorced several times already, indulges in adulterous affairs, abandons his children, and kills his last wife. He then is put in jail and is subject to the death penalty for his horrific crimes. He also captures, tortures and kills a guard while in jail. However, one hour before the scheduled execution, a priest hears his confession, and knowing that he is about to die, the criminal confesses and his sins are pardoned. He says prayers, given to him by the priest, which allow him to receive several indulgences, thus shortening or even possibly eliminating any time in Purgatory. He is then executed and is saved because of his last minute repentance.
Should it be your whole life or should it be what your state is at the last minute before your death which determines whether or not you will be saved?

I doubt a person who lived such a sinful and depraved life could have an on the spot conversion like that. As for the good person I think we need to leave it up to God to decide if his life earned him heaven if he didn’t go to one Mass.