Which Church teachings do you struggle to accept?

[St_Pancake]

My departed dogs will be in heaven. Along with my grandparents, and other loved ones. Pope Francis assured a little boy some months ago he would see his deceased dog again. If folks want to judge me for loving my animals, they can go right ahead.

This did not happen.

 

[St_Pancake]

The quote is outdated for when it’s used it insults people of other religions and the Church has to go through explanation gymnastics.

Jim

That is precisely why post #192 clearly identifies that ‘the Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church.’

‘In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].’

Then we identify that only Christ’s Catholic Church has the fullness of His Truth with Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and His Magisterium.

The second proves the first.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This did not happen.

Fascinating. It would appear you are correct. This shows how absolutely agenda driven the media is and how innocent the Church appears to be.
religionnews.com/2014/12/12/sorry-fido-pope-francis-not-say-pets-going-heaven/

This is a huge challenge for our “off the cuff” pope.

 

[St_Pancake]

No it is not. It is the Teaching of the Church. When it is used it is explained (due to yes misunderstandings that can arise in some -but because such can arise cannot make a Defined Teaching of the Church “out dated”).

Next shall we cease using the word Trinity because it offends some? Because some Muslims take it to mean we think there are three Gods or various sects reject it? No.

We teach and give the proper understanding. The Teaching of the Church is full and expansive.

We cannot say one part is outdated because it is misunderstood by a number.

The Immaculate Conception would have to be “outdated”…for so many think it means something else.

We are not going to say the “Immaculate Conception” is outdated -because in modern culture so many get confused and think they mean the Conception of Jesus. We are not to stop using the defined term.

No we are going to explain. And teach. And propose the* various *Truths of the Faith.

I’ve seen Catholics and Protestants confused by the statement.

 

[Bookcat]

Should it be your whole life or should it be what your state is at the last minute before your death which determines whether or not you will be saved?

Jesus tells us we know not the day or hour……

Yes life is a serious path. And yes we “watch”.

Such is not to lead to undue fear - certainly not.

We know our Good Shepherd and his desire for our salvation.

And remember a mortal sin is a very particular thing - where there is grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent. We knowingly and willing choose. God

For a Catholic to go to hell - he who has been baptized into Christ -given true life in him –

-“a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (CCC 1037).

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Can it happen that a person who has lived far away from God ( a living hell) has the grace and confession prior to death and enters into life? Yes by the great mercy of God.

Can it happen that a person commits a mortal sin and his life ends with him away from God? Yes. Can it also happen that his life lived in communion with God will incline him quickly to receive the grace of perfect contrition (and remember God can reach us with mercy in ways others do not see) prior to death? Yes. (be one ought not to presume…but rather “watch” for we know not the day or hour).

Let us always live in the friendship with Christ and if one does fall into a mortal sin - seek the grace of perfect contrition (which need not involve any emotion by the way) and confession quickly.

Let us live in Christ - in him is true life. He is our hope. He is our life. Remaining in him in grace -no one can separate us from him. Let us have confidence and trust in his love for us and his desire that we have that true life.

"Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108.html

 

[Bookcat]

I’ve seen Catholics and Protestants confused by the statement.

Yes we all be get confused about many things. Part of life

That is what “seeking and finding” is all about…

we have to seek the truth and discover what this or that means.

And of course the Church continually Teachings what this or that means…or does not mean…

 

[Bookcat]

Should it be your whole life or should it be what your state is at the last minute before your death which determines whether or not you will be saved?

Jesus tells us we know not the day or hour……

Yes life is a serious path. And yes we are to as Jesus says “watch”.

Such is not to lead to undue fear - certainly not.

We know our Good Shepherd and his desire for our salvation.

And remember a mortal sin is a very particular thing - where there is grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent. We knowingly and willing choose something grave.

For a Catholic to go to hell - he who has been baptized into Christ -given true life in him –

-“a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (CCC 1037).

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Can it happen that a person who has lived far away from God ( a living hell) has the grace and confession prior to death and enters into life? Yes by the great mercy of God.

Can it happen that a person commits a mortal sin and his life ends with him away from God? Yes. Can it also happen that his life lived in communion with God will incline him quickly to receive the grace of perfect contrition (and remember God can reach us with mercy in ways others do not see) prior to death? Yes. (be one ought not to presume…but rather “watch” for we know not the day or hour).

Let us always live in the friendship with Christ and if one does fall into a mortal sin - seek the grace of perfect contrition (which need not involve any emotion by the way) and confession quickly.

Let us live in Christ - in him is true life. He is our hope. He is our life. Remaining in him in grace -no one can separate us from him. Let us have confidence and trust in his love for us and his desire that we have that true life.

"Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108.html

 

[cena]

This is something that also bothers me. Suppose that a person leads a good life, gives to charity, is faithful to his wife, spends time every day teaching his children, helps out at the local orphanage as a volunteer, but inexcusably one Sunday he misses Mass and then is hit by a car and dies. His one mortal sin would then condemn him to hell. On the other hand, suppose that a person leads a life of crime, ruining reputations of others by indulging in false gossip, and beats his wives, having been divorced several times already, indulges in adulterous affairs, abandons his children, and kills his last wife. He then is put in jail and is subject to the death penalty for his horrific crimes. He also captures, tortures and kills a guard while in jail. However, one hour before the scheduled execution, a priest hears his confession, and knowing that he is about to die, the criminal confesses and his sins are pardoned. He says prayers, given to him by the priest, which allow him to receive several indulgences, thus shortening or even possibly eliminating any time in Purgatory. He is then executed and is saved because of his last minute repentance.
Should it be your whole life or should it be what your state is at the last minute before your death which determines whether or not you will be saved?

Where a person goes is determined by their relationship with God at death. An unrepented mortal sin cuts off their relationship with God. If someone lives an otherwise good life but then commits a blasphemy right before they die and they do not repent, should they still go to heaven despite disliking God enough to commit a blasphemy? Heaven which is seeing God face to face?

 

[St_Pancake]

Fascinating. It would appear you are correct. This shows how absolutely agenda driven the media is and how innocent the Church appears to be.
religionnews.com/2014/12/12/sorry-fido-pope-francis-not-say-pets-going-heaven/

This is a huge challenge for our “off the cuff” pope.

I’ve found it wise to do independent research anytime the pope makes news. What we are told, has not always been the truth.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yesterday’s Office of the Reading in the Liturgy of the Hours, brought this thread to mind.

I think it would be helpful for people to read it.

From a sermon by Saint Peter Chrysologus, bishop
Each of us is called to be both a sacrifice to God and his priest

I appeal to you by the mercy of God. This appeal is made by Paul, or rather, it is made by God through Paul, because of God’s desire to be loved rather than feared, to be a father rather than a Lord. God appeals to us in his mercy to avoid having to punish us in his severity.

Listen to the Lord’s appeal: In me, I want you to see your own body, your members, your heart, your bones, your blood. You may fear what is divine, but why not love what is human? You may run away from me as the Lord, but why not run to me as your father? Perhaps you are filled with shame for causing my bitter passion. Do not be afraid. This cross inflicts a mortal injury, not on me, but on death. These nails no longer pain me, but only deepen your love for me. I do not cry out because of these wounds, but through them I draw you into my heart. My body was stretched on the cross as a symbol, not of how much I suffered, but of my all-embracing love. I count it no loss to shed my blood: it is the price I have paid for your ransom. Come, then, return to me and learn to know me as your father, who repays good for evil, love for injury, and boundless charity for piercing wounds.

Listen now to what the Apostle urges us to do. I appeal to you, he says, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice. By this exhortation of his, Paul has raised all men to priestly status.

How marvellous is the priesthood of the Christian, for he is both the victim that is offered on his own behalf, and the priest who makes the offering. He does not need to go beyond himself to seek what he is to immolate to God: with himself and in himself he brings the sacrifice he is to offer God for himself. The victim remains and the priest remains, always one and the same. Immolated, the victim still lives: the priest who immolates cannot kill. Truly it is an amazing sacrifice in which a body is offered without being slain and blood is offered without being shed.

The Apostle says: I appeal to you by the mercy of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice. Brethren, this sacrifice follows the pattern of Christ’s sacrifice by which he gave his body as a living immolation for the life of the world. He really made his body a living sacrifice, because, though slain, he continues to live. In such a victim death receives its ransom, but the victim remains alive. Death itself suffers the punishment. This is why death for the martyrs is actually a birth, and their end a beginning. Their execution is the door to life, and those who were thought to have been blotted out from the earth shine brilliantly in heaven.

Paul says: I appeal to you by the mercy of God to present your bodies as a sacrifice, living and holy. The prophet said the same thing: Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but you have prepared a body for me. Each of us is called to be both a sacrifice to God and his priest. Do not forfeit what divine authority confers on you. Put on the garment of holiness, gird yourself with the belt of chastity. Let Christ be your helmet, let the cross on your forehead be your unfailing protection. Your breastplate should be the knowledge of God that he himself has given you. Keep burning continually the sweet smelling incense of prayer. Take up the sword of the Spirit. Let your heart be an altar. Then, with full confidence in God, present your body for sacrifice. God desires not death, but faith; God thirsts not for blood, but for self-surrender; God is appeased not by slaughter, but by the offering of your free will.

• See more at: divineoffice.org/?date=20150428#sthash.tlI0MCha.dpuf

Jim

 

[Tomdstone]

Where a person goes is determined by their relationship with God at death.

It doesn’t seem right to ignore 99.999% of a person’s life when determining his salvation and to base his eternal salvation only and exclusively on 0.001% of his life, i.e., his state at the last minute innediately before his death.

 

[Bookcat]

It doesn’t seem right to ignore 99.999% of a person’s life when determining his salvation and to base his eternal salvation only and exclusively on 0.001% of his life, i.e., his state at the last minute innediately before his death.

It is the state “at death” not a minute before. A minute before can hold much grace and indeed salvation…

One must remember what a* mortal sin** is. * With a mortal sin there is deliberate choice of the gravely sinful matter - with full knowledge and complete consent. It his choice that he makes freely and knowingly.

God is not out to get us…well actually he is out to “get us” (the Shepherd desires his sheep to come home) to give us life and to give us that life eternally…

---

Jesus tells us we know not the day or hour……

Yes life is a serious path. And yes we are to as Jesus says “watch”.

Such is not to lead to undue fear - certainly not.

We know our Good Shepherd and his desire for our salvation.

And remember a mortal sin is a very particular thing - where there is grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent. We knowingly and willing choose something grave.

For a Catholic to go to hell - he who has been baptized into Christ -given true life in him –

-“a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (CCC 1037).

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Can it happen that a person who has lived far away from God ( a living hell) has the grace and confession prior to death and enters into life? Yes by the great mercy of God.

Can it happen that a person commits a mortal sin and his life ends with him away from God? Yes. Can it also happen that his life lived in communion with God will incline him quickly to receive the grace of perfect contrition (and remember God can reach us with mercy in ways others do not see) prior to death? Yes. (be one ought not to presume…but rather “watch” for we know not the day or hour).

Let us always live in the friendship with Christ and if one does fall into a mortal sin - seek the grace of perfect contrition (which need not involve any emotion by the way) and confession quickly.

Let us live in Christ - in him is true life. He is our hope. He is our life. Remaining in him in grace -no one can separate us from him. Let us have confidence and trust in his love for us and his desire that we have that true life.

"Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108.html

 

[thistle]

This is something that also bothers me. Suppose that a person leads a good life, gives to charity, is faithful to his wife, spends time every day teaching his children, helps out at the local orphanage as a volunteer, but inexcusably one Sunday he misses Mass and then is hit by a car and dies. His one mortal sin would then condemn him to hell. On the other hand, suppose that a person leads a life of crime, ruining reputations of others by indulging in false gossip, and beats his wives, having been divorced several times already, indulges in adulterous affairs, abandons his children, and kills his last wife. He then is put in jail and is subject to the death penalty for his horrific crimes. He also captures, tortures and kills a guard while in jail. However, one hour before the scheduled execution, a priest hears his confession, and knowing that he is about to die, the criminal confesses and his sins are pardoned. He says prayers, given to him by the priest, which allow him to receive several indulgences, thus shortening or even possibly eliminating any time in Purgatory. He is then executed and is saved because of his last minute repentance.
Should it be your whole life or should it be what your state is at the last minute before your death which determines whether or not you will be saved?

It may bother you but that is correct. Your destination is determined by the state of your soul at death.
Yes a really good person who lives his life helping others etc but commits a mortal sin before dying and dies unrepentant would not be saved while a lifelong bad criminal who just before death sincerely turns to God and repents would be saved if dying repentant.

 

[Tomdstone]

Your destination is determined by the state of your soul at death..

But that is not what Jesus said in Matthew 25. He didn’t say it was what your state is at the moment of death. What He said was: [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[Burdock]

It may bother you but that is correct. Your destination is determined by the state of your soul at death.
Yes a really good person who lives his life helping others etc but commits a mortal sin before dying and dies unrepentant would not be saved while a lifelong bad criminal who just before death sincerely turns to God and repents would be saved if dying repentant.

I cannot believe that someone would go to hell for missing mass.

 

[Rau]

I cannot believe that someone would go to hell for missing mass.

You inadequately specify the situation. Was he sick, tired, careless…none of which sound a serious rejection of God to me.

 

[Rosebud77]

It may bother you but that is correct. Your destination is determined by the state of your soul at death.
Yes a really good person who lives his life helping others etc but commits a mortal sin before dying and dies unrepentant would not be saved while a lifelong bad criminal who just before death sincerely turns to God and repents would be saved if dying repentant.

I do not and will not believe this. Period. The first part I mean

 

[Rosebud77]

Not read the whole thread so excuse if a duplicate. It is not acceptable or credible that what I priest does does not affect the consecration at mass. Period. Purity cannot pass through impurity. NB I am in Ireland and have been let down many times when child abuse has been exposed… " Who can ascend into the hill of the Lord? He who has clean hands and a pure heart…"

 

[St_Pancake]

I cannot believe that someone would go to hell for missing mass.

What did Jesus call the greatest commandment? Doesn’t all sin break the greatest commandment?

 

[Bookcat]

But that is not what Jesus said in Matthew 25. He didn’t say it was what your state is at the moment of death. What He said was

Such are examples of mortal sins. If one does not repent - but persists in such mortal sin until death yes one chooses hell.

Those passages are not to be taken in isolation from the rest of the Gospels and the Teachings found in the New Testament…

A person can have done all those things (well “not done”) and yes later repent and be baptized and enter into true life…and depart this world in that life…