R
Rau
Guest
Preventing a pregnancy is a goal, not an act. It can be justly pursued. Contraception is an act - a means - which the Church explains is a wrong act.
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R
Rau
Guest
I did not mention Mr Onan
B
Bookcat
Guest
"Therefore, a slogan that was popular some years back: “Jesus yes, Church no”, is totally inconceivable with the intention of Christ. This individualistically chosen Jesus is an imaginary Jesus.
We cannot have Jesus without the reality he created and in which he communicates himself. Between the Son of God-made-flesh and his Church there is a profound, unbreakable and mysterious continuity by which Christ is present today in his people. He is always contemporary with us, he is always contemporary with the Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles and alive in the succession of the Apostles. And his very presence in the community, in which he himself is always with us, is the reason for our joy. Yes, Christ is with us, the Kingdom of God is coming."
~ Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060315_en.html
“Still today some say: “Christ yes, the Church no”. Like those who say “I believe in God but not in priests”. But it is the Church herself which brings Christ to us and which brings us to God. The Church is the great family of God’s children. Of course, she also has human aspects. In those who make up the Church, pastors and faithful, there are shortcomings, imperfections and sins. The Pope has these too — and many of them; but what is beautiful is that when we realize we are sinners we encounter the mercy of God who always forgives.”
~ Pope Francis
w2.vatican.va/content/frances…-generale.html
We cannot have Jesus without the reality he created and in which he communicates himself. Between the Son of God-made-flesh and his Church there is a profound, unbreakable and mysterious continuity by which Christ is present today in his people. He is always contemporary with us, he is always contemporary with the Church, built on the foundation of the Apostles and alive in the succession of the Apostles. And his very presence in the community, in which he himself is always with us, is the reason for our joy. Yes, Christ is with us, the Kingdom of God is coming."
~ Pope Benedict XVI
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060315_en.html
“Still today some say: “Christ yes, the Church no”. Like those who say “I believe in God but not in priests”. But it is the Church herself which brings Christ to us and which brings us to God. The Church is the great family of God’s children. Of course, she also has human aspects. In those who make up the Church, pastors and faithful, there are shortcomings, imperfections and sins. The Pope has these too — and many of them; but what is beautiful is that when we realize we are sinners we encounter the mercy of God who always forgives.”
~ Pope Francis
w2.vatican.va/content/frances…-generale.html
B
Burdock
Guest
Quite frankly I dont care.
B
Bookcat
Guest
I am sorry to hear that.
H
Hans_W
Guest
On this thread, most people arguing for contraception to be allowed are non-Catholics.
Most people arguing that contraception is a “grave sin” are Catholics, obviously with a conservative bend.
That leaves us with the paradox that the majority of Catholics do use contraceptives. The dissonance is even greater when it comes to receiving communion with all the restrictions imposed by the Church.
It looks like that the ideal of the Church is more and more removed from reality. But what I call “ideal” is not some distant goal we are trying to achieve, but these are the ground rules. Using contraception is a “grave sin” we are told and you are facing eternal damnation if you use it and don’t repent. And this rule cannot change, it will not change and it is infallible. How are we to take this seriously if the majority of Catholics simply ignores it?
What organisation, what country would function if the majority of its employees or citizens disobey the ground rules and laws?
R
Rau
Guest
Makes you think about how many of us are sinners and our fate. A sobering thought. But not one we can answer.
I don’t know what you mean by “How are we to take this seriously”.
B
Burdock
Guest
Well im sorry I do not believe that I face damnation for using contraception. The church is totally out of touch. Glad I left it, all these ridgid man made rules.
S
SonOfMan
Guest
The teachings about a man who looks with lust seem to contradict the teachings about works.
In order for your good intentions to count, they have to be followed by good works, or else its worthless.
However
When it comes to bad intentions with no action, all of a sudden it counts as if you acted out something bad.
In order for your good intentions to count, they have to be followed by good works, or else its worthless.
However
When it comes to bad intentions with no action, all of a sudden it counts as if you acted out something bad.
B
Bookcat
Guest
It is no paradox that many Catholics do not follow the Teachings of the Church - such is called “ignorance” or “conscience not formed according to the Truth” or “the influence of the surrounding culture” or simply Sin etc…
There is no surprise in this current world and culture that many do not.
I do not say majority for as I noted:
One survey or another or even another 3 - is just that. "a survey’
It is Not a counting of all Catholics…
How many “surveys” are done about who will win an election!!??
And that person the majority said they voted for – looses…
Such would be an example of the line “statistics lie”.
And even if it should ever happen in the future?
What then?
Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought the earth was flat?
Does that make it so?
Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought infanticide is good?
Does that make it so?
Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought contraception was good?
Does that make it so?
Even if the majority of person on this earth thought theft was good?
Does that make it so?
“Truth is not determined by a majority vote”
~ Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI)
R
Rau
Guest
I believe the relevant encyclicals speak to a little more than Onan! But on that point, do you see Onan’s sin as nothing other than disobedience? Why then did he go to the lady’s room? To her bed? Why did he engage in sex! Sex he ended in a contraceptive act, presumably with s bit of masturbation thrown in!
B
Bookcat
Guest
Conservative?
I am afraid that is a political term not so much a Theological term.
The term to use is simply:
Catholic.
For such is simply the Catholic Faith.
T
Tomdstone
Guest
Is it known with certainty that this rule is infallible and cannot change?
T
Tomdstone
Guest
I think you are wrong to reject statistical sampling.
S
SonOfMan
Guest
If it doesnt specificy “Ex Cathedra” explicitly before the statement, then it is not infallible, accorsing to what I have learned in these forums.
I wonder if it says “ex cathedra” in the encyclical or any other writings that people quote about contraception to claim that it is evil.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Already explained myself.
And again the main point is the rest of the post and that last part!
And even if it should ever happen in the future?
What then?
Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought the earth was flat?
Does that make it so?
Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought infanticide is good?
Does that make it so?
Even if the majority of persons on this earth thought contraception was good?
Does that make it so?
Even if the majority of person on this earth thought theft was good?
Does that make it so?
“Truth is not determined by a majority vote”
~ Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI)
B
Bookcat
Guest
A
Abu
Guest
Such farcical “reasoning” is precisely what Jesus of Nazareth condemned. But why should they care what God mandates?
Our Lord was faced precisely with this sort of myopia among His followers and this is how He showed them, and us, what to expect:
Jn 6:55: For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. And many walked no more with Him. (Jn 6:66). Did he say “you misunderstood Me”? No, He let them go – take note.
Then, to make absolutely certain there was no mistaking what He was saying, Jesus said to the Twelve, “What about you, do you want to go away too?” To which Simon Peter replied, “Lord, who shall we go to? You have the message of eternal life, and we believe” (John 6:59-68).
So Burdock, Hans W and the other scoffers now know what not to take Jesus of Nazareth seriously really means, and this includes His clearly mandated foundation of His Catholic Church which does NOT have “man-made rules” on faith and morals but the command authorization from the Christ on faith and morals that “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19). That’s the God whose own and only Church is out of touch?
Christ’s own and only Church is “so totally out of touch” urges Satan, and this is parroted. So who is living in a dream underworld?
“If you love Me, keep My commandments” teaches the Lord of the Universe.
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