Which Church teachings do you struggle to accept?

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t think it is outdated, Perhaps as outdated as “eat my flesh”

Apples and oranges.

When Catholics use the quote, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” non-Catholics close their minds to any explanation.

It does nothing to bring people to the Church.

Jim

 

[Tomdstone]

Unbaptised children are not condemned .

The catechism of Pope St. Pius X says that infants cannot be saved without Baptism. Also, the Baltimore catechism says:
“Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family-father, mother, and children-may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity-just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth…”
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bsacr-b.htm

 

[Abu]

JimR-OCDS #200
When Catholics use the quote, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” non-Catholics close their minds to any explanation.
It does nothing to bring people to the Church.

That is precisely why post #192 clearly identifies that ‘the Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church.’

‘In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].’

Then we identify that only Christ’s Catholic Church has the fullness of His Truth with Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and His Magisterium.

 

[ByzantineHeart]

Well there are a few teachings I struggle with but one in particular is the Latin discipline of unmarried priests. This is just my humble opinion but given the extreme situation of shortage of priests and the resulting closing of parishes, the Latin church may be wise in considering giving the green light for married clergy.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Apples and oranges.

When Catholics use the quote, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” non-Catholics close their minds to any explanation.

It does nothing to bring people to the Church.

Jim

It does nothing to bring people to the Church.

That is a bold statement about something that cannot be quantified.

Would you prefer all are saved Through Jesus Christ and His Church?

I think it is silly to fall into the trap of renaming something to make it more palatable to the masses. The Church loses this battle at every turn. Hence gay marriage etc. Once we think that rewording something will save souls we are ignoring the basis of the word “faith” and acting more like a corporate brand manager than a Church that should let the Truth stand on it’s own. Especially if we claim to have the Fullness of the Truth.

 

[ByzantineHeart]

I struggle with the idea that higher animals like dogs do not have immortal souls, and therefore they more than likely do not experience life after death. I say this not because I “need” them, but for the animals’ own sake.

To me, it seems uncharacteristic of God to create a sentient being whose ultimate end is oblivion. When we respond that God will fulfill the joy we had in our pets, it comes as little consolation; with all due honor to God, the Beatific Vision is too abstract to be comforting. One Catholic blogger I once ran across snidely dismissed believing in animal heaven as “the fidoist heresy”. We’re supposed to bind up the wounds of the brokenhearted, not pour salt on them.

I also find the teaching on the death penalty hard to accept, since the Church used it so frequently before Vatican II, especially to get rid of politically inconvenient people like Giordano Bruno. It comes off as hypocritical of the Church to have such a rapid reversal of doctrine.

Also, when I hear of or think of people who hack, commit identity theft and cybercrime, and create computer viruses, the Church’s death penalty prohibition becomes VERY frustrating! Those who waste their talents ruining the lives of others are just… AAARRRGGGHHH!!! :takethat:

My departed dogs will be in heaven. Along with my grandparents, and other loved ones. Pope Francis assured a little boy some months ago he would see his deceased dog again. If folks want to judge me for loving my animals, they can go right ahead.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My departed dogs will be in heaven. Along with my grandparents, and other loved ones. Pope Francis assured a little boy some months ago he would see his deceased dog again. If folks want to judge me for loving my animals, they can go right ahead.

Keep your dog out of my room in heaven! I dont want other peoples cats, or dogs or lizard or pet mosquitoes in heaven…

Myt heaven is a place where leash laws are enforced and dogs dont run up to my kids to “just say hi”

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That is a bold statement about something that cannot be quantified.

Would you prefer all are saved Through Jesus Christ and His Church?

I think it is silly to fall into the trap of renaming something to make it more palatable to the masses. The Church loses this battle at every turn. Hence gay marriage etc. Once we think that rewording something will save souls we are ignoring the basis of the word “faith” and acting more like a corporate brand manager than a Church that should let the Truth stand on it’s own. Especially if we claim to have the Fullness of the Truth.

The mission of the Church is to bring souls to Jesus Christ.

Using wording which does the opposite does not serve the mission.

We who read the Catechism understand what the Church is teaching, and by the way, the current toned-down language on this issue was the result of Vatican II.

Prior, the statement was absolute and rigid with no explanation.

Non-Catholics hear the statement and merely walk away believing the Church is still back in a mid-evil mindset.

Jim

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The mission of the Church is to bring souls to Jesus Christ.

Using wording which does the opposite does not serve the mission.

We who read the Catechism understand what the Church is teaching, and by the way, the current toned-down language on this issue was the result of Vatican II.

Prior, the statement was absolute and rigid with no explanation.

Non-Catholics hear the statement and merely walk away believing the Church is still back in a mid-evil mindset.

Jim

Most faiths throughout history have viewed their God or spirituality as the True and exclusive one. Perhaps universalists and others take a more new agey “Coexist” Approach but Catholics have long been losing out to faiths that make their case for exclusivity. Islam, Judaism, and certainly within the umbrella of Christianity itself. How many millions have been lost to Churches who claim with exclusivity to have the path of salvation. Why, some of the largest denominations in the United States consider Catholics as unsaved. And our faith has been at this longer than most. IT has worked for near two thousand years and it is only now that we are seeing a dramatic downturn in faiths that choose to cater and change wording to sound more accepting. Catholicism included. Perhaps when one hears that statement they are somewhat put off but it also speaks to the quest for Truth that lies in every soul. And if we temper that out of fear of seeming too exculsive then we are tapering God’s own direction of preaching the Gospel to all nations. The Fullness of Truth is in the Catholic faith. It always has been. We do not canonize other faiths people. There is no Saint Martin Luthor.

It would seem to me that we are losing people because we are scared of speaking hard truths. And whenever confronted with this I always ALWAYS think of John Chapter 6. When they said it was a hard teaching Jesus had and they walked away. Jesus did not say, no, what I really meant was… sorry to offend. He let them walk rather than water down the Truth, the Full Truth.

There is no salvation outside of The Church, who was born to baptize others to open the gates of heaven that were closed to humanity from the first two humans ever to Christ Himself. Change the words to fit the PR? Yikes, that would probably drive more away than it would attract!

I think God’s leadership and words and Church should be enough don’t you?

And by the way medieval times were not as dark and oppressive as you seem to think. Many saints, one of which the Pope took the name of, come from this period. It is not really mid nor “evil” It is a THOUSAND years of salvation and doctors of the Church who we owe our salvation and sacraments to.

 

[Tomdstone]

My departed dogs will be in heaven. Along with my grandparents, and other loved ones. Pope Francis assured a little boy some months ago he would see his deceased dog again. If folks want to judge me for loving my animals, they can go right ahead.

This is a teaching that I struggle with. That there will be dogs in heaven. I am so sick and tired of these vicious attack dogs growling and barking everytime I want to get into the house or even when I am trying to sleep. They come up to the fence and are ready to bite, attack and kill anyone who gets too close. They are continuously barking viciously and hysterically. I was hoping to get some peace and quiet in heaven, but now you say that the Catholic Pope had declared that dogs are in heaven? Sorry but I am not too happy about such a teaching. I know that according to canon law (canon 1364) you are automatically excommunicated for heresy. I hope it is not heretical to reject this Catholic teaching about dogs being in heaven?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is a teaching that I struggle with. That there will be dogs in heaven. I am so sick and tired of these vicious attack dogs growling and barking everytime I want to get into the house or even when I am trying to sleep. They come up to the fence and are ready to bite, attack and kill anyone who gets too close. They are continuously barking viciously and hysterically. I was hoping to get some peace and quiet in heaven, but now you say that the Catholic Pope had declared that dogs are in heaven? Sorry but I am not too happy about such a teaching. I know that according to canon law (canon 1364) you are automatically excommunicated for heresy. I hope it is not heretical to reject this Catholic teaching about dogs being in heaven?

Why stop at dogs? Rats? Snakes? I knew a little boy who loved his python more than anything. Goldfish? How about the fleas on the dogs?

 

[Tomdstone]

Why stop at dogs? Rats? Snakes? I knew a little boy who loved his python more than anything. Goldfish? How about the fleas on the dogs?

This is a teaching that I struggle to accept.

 

[Rau]

This is a teaching that I struggle with. That there will be dogs in heaven. I am so sick and tired of these vicious attack dogs growling and barking everytime I want to get into the house or even when I am trying to sleep. They come up to the fence and are ready to bite, attack and kill anyone who gets too close. They are continuously barking viciously and hysterically. I was hoping to get some peace and quiet in heaven, but now you say that the Catholic Pope had declared that dogs are in heaven? Sorry but I am not too happy about such a teaching. I know that according to canon law (canon 1364) you are automatically excommunicated for heresy. I hope it is not heretical to reject this Catholic teaching about dogs being in heaven?

Fear not. For both the little boy and you will find heaven supremely happy. If the little boy requires his dog for that, and you require no dog, then thus it shall be for each of you.

 

[Tomdstone]

Fear not. For both the little boy and you will find heaven supremely happy. If the little boy requires his dog for that, and you require no dog, then thus it shall be for each of you.

Oh really? The boy will have his dog in heaven? Are you serious? You mean there will be dogs in heaven for all eternity? IMHO, dogs do not have immortal souls and will not live for all eternity. Please explain where it is stated that dogs have immortal souls and will live for all eternity in heaven. Also, does that apply to other animals also, such as cats or lizards? I thought that it was only Adam and Eve of all the animals at that time, who had immortal souls and that it is only humans today who have immortal souls?

 

[Rau]

Oh really? The boy will have his dog in heaven? Are you serious? You mean there will be dogs in heaven for all eternity? IMHO, dogs do not have immortal souls and will not live for all eternity. Please explain where it is stated that dogs have immortal souls and will live for all eternity in heaven. Also, does that apply to other animals also, such as cats or lizards? I thought that it was only Adam and Eve of all the animals at that time, who had immortal souls and that it is only humans today who have immortal souls?

The boy will be supremely happy. And so will you. Resolve it what ever way does the job Tom.

 

[Tomdstone]

The boy will be supremely happy. And so will you. Resolve it what ever way does the job Tom.

So the dog does live eternally in heaven according to you? What you propose makes no sense. Animals do not have eternal souls. Even if Neanderthal man had lived before Adam and Eve, he would have no immortal soul.

 

[mommy_k]

I was taught in catholic school that pets go to pet heaven. We can visit them.

 

[Burdock]

The catechism of Pope St. Pius X says that infants cannot be saved without Baptism. Also, the Baltimore catechism says:
“Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family-father, mother, and children-may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity-just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth…”
cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bsacr-b.htm

The church does NOT teach that unbaptised infants go to hell.

 

[tskrobacz]

Am I the only person here on CAF who struggle to accept Church teachings on different issues? I love the Mass, believe in the True Presence, and absolutely adore the Holy Mother, but there are three issues that I cannot come to grips with:

1. The ban on ABC

2.  Divorced people that cannot receive the Eucharist if they have remarried without 
     obtaining an annulment from the Church.

3.  LGBTQ individuals are expected to live celebate lives until they die.

What are the issues that you deal with and pray about on a daily basis? Thank you all , in advance for being honest.

Seek and ye shall find…When Jesus spoke, many that were present had a hard time with his teaching…especially because he spoke with the authority of God. When you cannot understand a church teaching you have 2 choices…1) seek to understand the deeper meaning and how it aligns to the truth (as Jesus instructed) or 2) presume the church is wrong and trust in the God of your own ego.

I have always found it more fruitful to assume my understanding is lacking and the cause of my confusion about church teaching.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hoosier Daddy

There is no salvation outside of The Church, who was born to baptize others to open the gates of heaven that were closed to humanity from the first two humans ever to Christ Himself. Change the words to fit the PR? Yikes, that would probably drive more away than it would attract!

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, if this is what you’re trying to say, do so with all the abstracted language.

And by the way medieval times were not as dark and oppressive as you seem to think.

It’s not what I think, but historical record. And it was God who reformed the Church through various saints like St Catherine of Sienna and St Francis of Assisi.

The Church had it dark periods, and to turn a blind eye to it reflects a lack of faith.

Many saints, one of which the Pope took the name of, come from this period. It is not really mid nor “evil” It is a THOUSAND years of salvation and doctors of the Church who we owe our salvation and sacraments to.

We owe our salvation to Jesus Christ, no other.

The doctors of the Church did nothing of their own. Everything they had was given to them through Jesus Christ.

They shared what was given to them with us, but they do not bring us our salvation, only Jesus Christ does that.

Jim