Which Church teachings do you struggle to accept?

[SAVINGRACE]

I do wish Catholics would stop publicly condemning people to Hell. Nobody knows who is going to Hell, Purgatory or Heaven except God. Can you read someone’s heart?

Don’t forget a mortal sin requires three conditions:

The object is a grave matter
It is committed with full knowledge
It is done with deliberate consent

Grave Matter (1858)

Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments. Jesus said, “Do not kill. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not bear false witness. Do not defraud. Honor your father and your mother” (Mk 10:19). Some sins are more grave than others. Murder is greater than thefts. Violence against parents is greater than against a stranger.

Knowledge and Consent (1859-1860)

Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes that the person knows that the act is sinful and is opposed to God’s law. It also requires a deliberate consent which is a personal choice. Feigned ignorance or hardness of heart increase the voluntariness.

Unintentional ignorance can diminish or remove grave imputability. However, no one is ignorant of the moral law written on the heart. Many factors (feelings, passions, external pressure, emotional disorders) can also diminish personal freedom. Sins of malice (a deliberate choice of evil) are the greatest.

Need for Repentance (1861)

Being free, man is capable of committing mortal sin which deprives him of sanctifying grace. This can exclude him from God’s kingdom forever if he does not repent and seek God’s forgiveness. When a person chooses mortal sin and refuses to turn back, he will suffer eternal death in hell.

Our God is the God of infinite mercy and infinite justice.

 

[cena]

Not read the whole thread so excuse if a duplicate. It is not acceptable or credible that what I priest does does not affect the consecration at mass. Period. Purity cannot pass through impurity. NB I am in Ireland and have been let down many times when child abuse has been exposed… " Who can ascend into the hill of the Lord? He who has clean hands and a pure heart…"

The validity of sacraments do not depend on the holiness of the priest. This was part of the heresy Donatism (if I remember correctly ). The sacraments come from God and the priest is in the persona of Christ.

 

[Bookcat]

I do wish Catholics would stop publicly condemning people to Hell.

I do not recall anyone condemning anyone to hell (but it is a long thread maybe somewhere). Perhaps you read too quickly?

I think we have been saying the same thing. Mortal sin requires all three aspects to commit a mortal sin …and then one has to die in that state to choose ones final destination as hell…

 

[Rosebud77]

The validity of sacraments do not depend on the holiness of the priest. This was part of the heresy Donatism (if I remember correctly ). The sacraments come from God and the priest is in the persona of Christ.

Christ did not abuse children.

 

[Rosebud77]

You folk make life so complicated. My trust is in Jesus alone. In Him I rest and trust not in the words of any man… So often the harshness and lack of love is written here not the utter love of Jesus. The human intellect is a dangerous thing so I set it aside. Most of us do not analyse and define as you do. So that is more of the church teaching I set aside for the utter love of Jesus. No I do not believe what you say; it is alien to me and many create their own hell . Sometimes it seems some Catholic worship the church not Jesus. NB I am a trained academic with a MENSA Iq but I set all that aside when I pray and live for Jesus. Hubris else. According to you Church teaches by threat and fear not by love. Sugar is more wholesome and nourishing than vinegar.

 

[Abu]

Rosebud77 #299
You folk make life so complicated. My trust is in Jesus alone. In Him I rest and trust not in the words of any man… So often the harshness and lack of love is written here not the utter love of Jesus. The human intellect is a dangerous thing so I set it aside. Most of us do not analyse and define as you do. So that is more of the church teaching I set aside for the utter love of Jesus. No I do not believe what you say; it is alien to me and many create their own hell . Sometimes it seems some Catholic worship the church not Jesus. NB I am a trained academic with a MENA Iq but I set all that aside when I pray and live for Jesus

Have you really seen and acknowledged the reality of the love of Jesus?

Take a good look:
That very same loving Christ to His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end” exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 8:17-18) (Frank Sheed, Christ In Eclipse, Sheed & Ward 1978, p 42). "With individuals He was very much the doctor with a duty not only to tell them what was wrong with them, but to make sure they realized it.” (Ibid. p 40-41).

Re the approach used, the great apologist Frank Sheed has shown Jesus as he really is:
“Certainly, some people who knew Christ in His lifetime would have been startled to find so much made of His loving kindness, indeed might have wondered if you were talking of the same person.”

Frank Sheed points out that Jesus was simply not given to sentimental utterances, and we have just seen how he handled John. Jesus shows plenty of the emotions of anger and grief – at those who accused Him of breaking the Sabbath when he healed (Mk 3:5). We never see Him smile, and His settled habit was terseness of speech. He made it His duty to tell people what was wrong with them, and made sure they realised it.

He refers us to the Gentile woman who “must have felt His ‘Do you want Me to take the bread of the children and give it to dogs?’ as an assertion of her inferiority as a Gentile:…did she feel Him loving?” (Mk 7:25)

So much for the false “acceptance” so often attributed to the Christ who told the woman taken in adultery to “sin no more” as she had breached the sixth commandment – which ensured that she paid more attention to the law. (Jn 8:3-11).

On the multitude however “he had compassion, for they were helpless and harassed like sheep without a shepherd.” (Mt 9:36). So, beware of the wolves in sheep’s clothing.

That’s why faithful Catholics don’t disregard faithful bishops; they heed them and follow them, for to follow Christ is to heed and accept His Church – “if you love Me, keep My Commandments”, for He is the Way the Truth and the Life.
[See* Christ In Eclipse, Frank Sheed, Sheed & Ward, 1978, p 40-41].

So kindness has to be based on realism, for until the seeker is assisted to have the blinkers removed and assent to all of Christ’s teaching through His Church that person will remain in a haze over what Christ really teaches. If there is dissent from any of the teaching of Christ’s own Church then those so afflicted are unable in the area of their infidelity to help others to the truth.

On Christ’s compassion for the multitude the incomparable Sheed continues:
“Yet one wonders how much He showed it: for they too had to have the truth. His settled habit was terseness of speech. When His mother told Him of her sorrow and Joseph’s for having deserted them for three days His answer began, ‘Didn’t you know–’ then He went home ‘and was obedient to them’. When she suggested a miracle at Cana, His words were ‘what does it have to do with us?’ – then He worked the miracle.”

“I see why some of my friends find Him not very attractive. He seems not to have spread Himself to win affection. Yet He did, in His lifetime, draw people to Him: yet something in the personality must have given the bluntness of his words a different feel. And this comes through in the Gospel pages, now as all down through the centuries.” Christ in Eclipse, p 41-42].

 

[Rau]

You folk make life so complicated. My trust is in Jesus alone. In Him I rest and trust not in the words of any man… So often the harshness and lack of love is written here not the utter love of Jesus. The human intellect is a dangerous thing so I set it aside. Most of us do not analyse and define as you do. So that is more of the church teaching I set aside for the utter love of Jesus. No I do not believe what you say; it is alien to me and many create their own hell . Sometimes it seems some Catholic worship the church not Jesus. NB I am a trained academic with a MENSA Iq but I set all that aside when I pray and live for Jesus. Hubris else. According to you Church teaches by threat and fear not by love. Sugar is more wholesome and nourishing than vinegar.

Can you explain how your “trust in Jesus alone”, and the “utter love of Jesus” eliminates the requirement for a Church with teaching authority? What do these things (alone) teach you about the rights or wrongs of the “teachings” raised in this thread?

For example:

• Is contraception, or no contraception, indicated by trust in Jesus?
• What about divorce and remarriage? What does the “utter love of Jesus” tell you?

I am not disputing or belittling your remarks - but I do not understand how you determine the moral path solely on the basis you set out.

 

[Bookcat]

Christ did not abuse children.

Right - and thus the Sacraments are still quite Valid even in the case of a Priest who has so terribly sinned (not that he should remain in active ministry - the Church is right to remove him). Why because it is JESUS who is acting in the case of the Sacraments.

Even if an Atheist baptizes a person (intending to baptize them as the Church does) - it is Christ who Baptizes.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You folk make life so complicated. My trust is in Jesus alone. In Him I rest and trust not in the words of any man… So often the harshness and lack of love is written here not the utter love of Jesus. The human intellect is a dangerous thing so I set it aside. Most of us do not analyse and define as you do. So that is more of the church teaching I set aside for the utter love of Jesus. No I do not believe what you say; it is alien to me and many create their own hell . Sometimes it seems some Catholic worship the church not Jesus. NB I am a trained academic with a MENSA Iq but I set all that aside when I pray and live for Jesus. Hubris else. According to you Church teaches by threat and fear not by love. Sugar is more wholesome and nourishing than vinegar.

1. How do you reconcile the fact that the Bible, or God’s revelation of who Jesus is, is compiled by the Church?
2. What is the Love of Jesus? Can you express what you mean by that?

 

[Bookcat]

You folk make life so complicated. My trust is in Jesus alone. In Him I rest and trust not in the words of any man… …So that is more of the church teaching I set aside for the utter love of Jesus.

One cannot set aside Church Teaching for love of Jesus - that would be against the love of Jesus. He is who Teaches through his Church (“He who hears you hears me”).

There will yes always be sinners - even at times very serious sinners even among Priests - and such Priests ought to be removed from office - but such does not remove the reality that “the Church” itself is the Body of Christ and Teaches by His order and authority. Teaching authority is from Christ (via the Holy Spirit) not from any human person.

---

It is good though not complicate things.

And this is what I mean by that:

Here is a quote from Saint Joan of Arc

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer:

“About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm#795

 

[Bookcat]

“Still today some say: “Christ yes, the Church no”. Like those who say “I believe in God but not in priests”. But it is the Church herself which brings Christ to us and which brings us to God. The Church is the great family of God’s children. Of course, she also has human aspects. In those who make up the Church, pastors and faithful, there are shortcomings, imperfections and sins. The Pope has these too — and many of them; but what is beautiful is that when we realize we are sinners we encounter the mercy of God who always forgives.”

~ Pope Francis

w2.vatican.va/content/francescomobile/en/audiences/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130529_udienza-generale.html

 

[Rosebud77]

Right - and thus the Sacraments are still quite Valid even in the case of a Priest who has so terribly sinned (not that he should remain in active ministry - the Church is right to remove him). Why because it is JESUS who is acting in the case of the Sacraments.

Even if an Atheist baptizes a person (intending to baptize them as the Church does) - it is Christ who Baptizes.

The problem here in Ireland is that the priests were not removed. We are still amid the audits of orders and dioceses… so I will follow my heart in this matter… Incidentally I think the title of this thread needs changing! It has become LET US ATTACK anyone who has issue re the teachings of the Church! My dears, I am an old old lady who has been in love with the Lord Jesus Christ all her long and painful life. I know Him and He knows me. I rest in Him and soon will be with Him forever… so soon, so blessedly soon. Why attack that? Yes there are teachings I cannot accept but why does that worry you so much? You have your life and I have mine. I worry not how you feel etc. I am totally content with my life in Jesus and need nothing more. Respect that please? My life has not been as your life is and God know that… no cookie cutters with Him /You would if we were in the same room after all. Do not lose your courtesy because you are not with me physically. Anyways, as the thread ha deteriorated into LET US ATTACK I am putting on my coat and shoes I if I can still reach my feet!) and going for a wee walk in the sweet Irish rain before my night with Jesus begins… Praying peace for thee for you have so little of that and I have so much. FEET WHERE ARE YOU! Ah there they are

 

[Bookcat]

Sacraments are still valid.

Why because it is JESUS who is acting in the case of the Sacraments.

Even if an Atheist baptizes a person (intending to baptize them as the Church does) - it is Christ who Baptizes.

(this is not to in any way set aside the fact that there have been Priests who have sinned horribly…but it is very consoling to know that Jesus is not stopped from feeding his sheep with his Sacraments -even by the terrible sins that some have done)

 

[Bookcat]

Let us always be concerned for one another and help each other along the paths of this pilgrimage with love and gentleness and joy and suffering with the other.
“Being concerned for each other” *also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten…

Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about *our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. *

This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012.html

We are all in this together and as brothers and sisters.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Let’s try to keep in mind that because a person struggles with a particular teaching of the Church, doesn’t mean they reject the teaching, but rather, it’s just not settled in their mind.

Lets not try to beat them over the head with arguments to justify the teaching, but try and understand that they struggle with it and let it go once you’ve explained it and they’re still not comfortable with it.

Eventually, doctrines will be made clear as they surrender the issue to the Holy Spirit who will help them,

Jim

 

[cena]

Christ did not abuse children.

They are in the place of Christ when performing a sacrament. They are still fallible humans. They are not acting in the place of Christ when sinning.

 

[cena]

You folk make life so complicated. My trust is in Jesus alone. In Him I rest and trust not in the words of any man… So often the harshness and lack of love is written here not the utter love of Jesus. The human intellect is a dangerous thing so I set it aside. Most of us do not analyse and define as you do. So that is more of the church teaching I set aside for the utter love of Jesus. No I do not believe what you say; it is alien to me and many create their own hell . Sometimes it seems some Catholic worship the church not Jesus. NB I am a trained academic with a MENSA Iq but I set all that aside when I pray and live for Jesus. Hubris else. According to you Church teaches by threat and fear not by love. Sugar is more wholesome and nourishing than vinegar.

Luke 10:16 (DRB) “He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.”- Jesus Christ

Jesus set up the Church to lead us to salvation, to pass down his teachings. Jesus is the Eucharist, the center of our worship. He was also the one that stressed how narrow the gate to heaven was, so the Church is here to help us.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

I do have one or two ‘reservations’, but leave any pontificating to the authority of the Pope and the College of Cardinals. Even our Blessed Mother does that.

ps. Those 'reservations are only after long and detailed study, reflection and prayer. But as I have said, I am leaving the first and last word, in this world anyway, to Mother Church.

I thank God that at my present age and state of health that none pose any physical or emotional challenge.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Let’s try to keep in mind that because a person struggles with a particular teaching of the Church, doesn’t mean they reject the teaching, but rather, it’s just not settled in their mind.

Lets not try to beat them over the head with arguments to justify the teaching, but try and understand that they struggle with it and let it go once you’ve explained it and they’re still not comfortable with it.

Eventually, doctrines will be made clear as they surrender the issue to the Holy Spirit who will help them,

Jim

This^^^!
1000 times, this!!!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Let’s try to keep in mind that because a person struggles with a particular teaching of the Church, doesn’t mean they reject the teaching, but rather, it’s just not settled in their mind.

Lets not try to beat them over the head with arguments to justify the teaching, but try and understand that they struggle with it and let it go once you’ve explained it and they’re still not comfortable with it.

Eventually, doctrines will be made clear as they surrender the issue to the Holy Spirit who will help them,

Jim

I think that has been kept in mind. I don’t think anyone has been “attacked” This site is called Catholic Answers and this thread is like a little microcosm of the whole site. It is apologetic in nature. I think Church teaching should be defended and vocalized. If some view that as an “attack” I have no idea what they would expect on this site.