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PRmerger
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Not sure why “princes” is in quotations? Are you saying that the baptized are not royal?
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adf417
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Randy_Carson
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Perhaps you don’t know that the Church began to call itself Catholic before the end of the first century?
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steido01
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Only in the same sense that it applies to every single, Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, what have you. What can any communion do to members who leave (or in Fr. Martin’s case, are booted out)? I suppose they could be excommunicated and their teachings anathematized, but when someone stops belonging to Communion X, they are no longer beholden to Communion X’s teachings.
What course of action would you have suggested for Paul, Nikolaus, Athanasius, Catherine, or Martin if not to defy corrupt teachers? Or for application in today’s world, what would you recommend for today’s Catholic if their bishop, as occasionally happens, fails to address heretical teachings and practices within their diocese?
By the way, as we continue our discussion on the authority of the church, I’m appreciating your’s and Randy’s defense of the necessity of the Church in the growth of Faith and reception of Grace via the Sacraments.
Typical Lutheran - disagreeing with Catholics on some, while disagreeing with the protestants on even more.
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zz912
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The Catholic Church is God’s gift to us, and the channel of His grace. And did you also notice no mention is made in there of the Bible?Wow, sorry, can’t go there.“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,” (Ephesians 2:8). No mention is made here of the RCC- or any other denomination, for that matter.
BTW, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is the Church that Jesus built. All other Christian denominations are broken away from the ONE Church that Jesus built.
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pablope
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Only in the same sense that it applies to every single, Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, what have you. What can any communion do to members who leave (or in Fr. Martin’s case, are booted out)? I suppose they could be excommunicated and their teachings anathematized, but when someone stops belonging to Communion X, they are no longer beholden to Communion X’s teachings.
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chero23
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But if the church teaches 1 thing, we must follow it.
Yes some people call themselves Catholics, but go against the Church teachings. Now they are son’s of God too, but that doesn’t mean that they are right.
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chero23
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Jon the EO is its own Church not Catholic.
Plus the CCC says that abortion is wrong. If any member of the Church says something else they are wrong, that simple.
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pablope
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Then…who do you say should have the final say in the Bible’s interpretation or meaning?
If not Rome…what it is the alternative you are proposing? Who should be that authority?
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chero23
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I agree with that
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chero23
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I totally agree with you.
Unfortunately the Bible is interpreted to personal beliefs and unfortunately it leads to alot of confusion.
It leaves every Lutheran with an exit responsibility IF heterodox teachings were to creep in, as the have done in some of the more liberal synods.
I have used the example of female ordination. What would you consider “nebulous and otiose” about female ordination? Were my synod begin to teach a “symbolic presence only” in the Eucharist, would that be nebulous?
We’re not speaking here of a debate about what time Divine Service should begin, PR. That would be nebulous. We’re speaking of doctrines of the Church, doctrines rooted in scripture and the apostles, and reflected by the confessions.
Yes, I am obligated to not be in communion with the ELCA, the synod my dad was an ordained pastor in, and I was raised in. If some wish to call that “personal interpretation”, OK, but let’s recall that my “personal interpretation” is far more closely aligned to the teachings of the early Church on that example of an issue.
To be sure, there are things the LCMS says and does that I’m not in agreement with, but as they are not doctrines that cannot be compromised, I submit to the teaching of the communion.
Jon
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Faithdancer
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Well after the Scriptures were written- under the divine guidance of almighty God, not the bishops
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Faithdancer
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You can insist it’s not a denomination but as long as it maintains it is the sole “depository of faith” to the exclusion of all other Christians who don’t happen to belong to the RCC- it is most definitely a denomination. 'Nuff said!
OTOH, I usually take umbrage when my communion is accused of believing something we do not, or being told by others that we “are this” or “are that”. If the Catholic Church chooses not to be referred to as a “denomination”, why would we want to contradict that?You can insist it’s not a denomination but as long as it maintains it is the sole “depository of faith” to the exclusion of all other Christians who don’t happen to belong to the RCC- it is most definitely a denomination. 'Nuff said!
Lutherans are not particularly fond of denominationalism, either.
Jon
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adawgj
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Which church?
Either the one where they go out in Ford F150’s to the woods and read the KJV to each other.
Or the one that is like going to see a rock concert with a motivational speaker at the end.
Either the one where they go out in Ford F150’s to the woods and read the KJV to each other.
Or the one that is like going to see a rock concert with a motivational speaker at the end.
I don’t know, having never experienced either. I, frankly, prefer the historic Lutheran liturgy, including word and sacrament, and sprinkled with hymns such as “A Mighty Fortress”, “Thy Strong Word”, and “The Church’s One Foundation”.
But that’s me.
Jon
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benhur
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Then why does vat2 say we are united, really under Catholic banner, though not perfectly .The not perfectly is an interpretation by CC of John 17. We are part of the Body. We are not outside the Body, disunited, or forming another Body . We fit John 17. One Body.
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