Which Church??

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Hi Randy,

This is not the only document which indicates that the ONLY way that there will be a reunion between Catholics and Lutherans will be IF the Catholic Church changes it’s teachings:

**Luther and the Mass
Justification and the Joint Declaration **
by Daniel Preus, then the First VP of the LCMS

“This article ends with a declaration True Lutherans will never take pleasure in discord. But neither will they surrender truth that is so clear and necessary for the church. If the Lutheran Church today wishes to hold to the gospel of Christ correctly and faithfully, she cannot afford to ignore actual differences in doctrine, especially when those differences impinge so directly on the gospel itself. The Roman and Lutheran teachings on the Lord’s Supper not only divide us in our understanding of the sacrament of the altar. They represent two differing soteriologies, and no less in our day than in Luther’s. It is difficult to know what long-term effect the Joint Declaration will have on Lutheran and Roman Catholic churches. **One thing is sure we have no consensus now on the doctrine of justification, nor will there ever be consensus as long as the Roman mass remains a sacrifice.” **

Daniel Preus is a contributing editor for Logia. Formerly director of the Concordia Historical Institute, he is (was actually when he wrote this) First Vice President of the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod.

Here we have the First VP of the LCMS stating that there will never be consensus between Lutherans and Catholics as long as the Catholic Mass remains a sacrifice.

Luther’s “ecumenical approach” lives on to this day.

For those who don’t understand the nature of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Mass will FOREVER be a sacrifice – so there you have it. It will never cave in to demands to change that or any other dogmatic teaching, In all of these various Lutheran pronouncements that I have seen, I have never seen one which indicates that Lutheranism would give in on any issue, but rather than it is expected that the Church would be required to.

God Bless You Randy, Topper
Let’s be optimistic for a moment. I think there is much misunderstanding regarding justification, but Catholics and Lutherans seem to be coming to the realization that they were saying the same thing but using different language.

Similarly, the Orthodox have a real issue with the filioque, but it may be that East and West simply misunderstood one another in the past and that this can be corrected.

So, is it possible that maybe Lutherans have misunderstood the re-presentation of the one sacrifice of Jesus, and if they understand it correctly and agree with it, progress might be made?

🤷
 
I must say that I am astonished to see that statement on an official Lutheran website.

Prior to this thread I would have scoffed at any anti-Lutheran poster who had made the claim that the Lutheran church views the office of the papacy as the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist…sco I am simply aghast to see it in print.
I wasn’t too surprised. :o
 
While I will not assume to know Topper’s motives in the same way he seems to know Melanchthon’s by calling him a liar, Topper refuses to accept the understanding of the documents as provided by the synod, and linked to countless times here. Hence, he is trying to place us in a position of defending teaching which we do not adhere to, either as individuals or as members of the LCMS.

Let’s go down a short list, Randy:
Catholics have been accused of:
  • worshipping the Blessed Virgin. It isn’t true. Catholics have told me it isn’t. I believe them.
  • works righteousness. It isn’t true. Catholics have told me it isn’t. I believe them.
  • all sorts of terrible things regarding the Eucharist. Utter nonsense. I didn’t need a Catholic to tell me so.
    – violating scripture by auricular confessions. Again, nonsense.
Even on the things we disagree on, Randy, the Lutherans on this site regularly show simple manners and respect by accepting your explanations, and even on occasions, defending our Catholic siblings against others’ attacks.

Its very simple, Randy, we have explained often now to Topper that, according to the teachings of our synod, we do not consider Pope Francis, or Pope Benedict before him, to be the Anti-Christ. It is the teachings of the office that we consider opposed to Christ. We consider the teaching that the Eucharist is merely symbolic of Christ’s body and blood to be opposed to Christ. That teaching is “anti-Christ”. But the specific teaching of the office of the papacy that we oppose is described in the first three paragraphs of the Treatise, one of which is already moot.

Finally, I have never called a Catholic leader, current or historic, a liar. Topper presumes to know Melanchthon’s thoughts and motives, based on events described by a Catholic writer, Dr. Warren Carroll. Maybe he has writings from Melanchthon where he says he is intentionally deceiving those at Augsburg.
Regardless, his approach is not the one I found when I first came to CAF. It isn’t the atmosphere I’ve enjoyed so thoroughly since my arrival here. He apparently doesn’t break the rules of CAF (if he did, I know Eric would deal with it), but neither is he shedding a positive light on Catholicism.

Jon
👍 Thank you, Jon. I wish I had the patience to respond as you do, but I am a poor, sinful, wretched being-- chiefest of sinners. And so I ask all of my CAF friends to pray for me, as I do for them.

I’d only add that nothing in this thread is “new” news. The Confessional Lutheran understanding of the Papacy has never been “hidden.” Nothing is being “brought to light.” For goodness sake, it’s on the Internet! But explanations from Lutheran authorities continue to be ignored by some posters in favor of amateur, anti-Lutheran polemics. I hope the intelligent reader can understand from your post why many of the regular Lutherans here have lately become frustrated with the unusual level of intellectual disrespect – uncharacteristic of CAF.

What I find most disheartening is that this is not the approach taken by other Catholics, or the Church, including Benedict XVI, who is perhaps the greatest theologian of our time (not just within Catholicism, but all Christendom!). If that magnificent mind could consider Confessio Augustana “Catholic,” encourage documents like the JDDJ, publicly lobby for corporate reunion, specifically greet the LCMS by name, and pray with Lutherans – why doesn’t this mindset trickle into the laity?
 
👍 Thank you, Jon. I wish I had the patience to respond as you do, but I am a poor, sinful, wretched being-- chiefest of sinners. And so I ask all of my CAF friends to pray for me, as I do for them.

I’d only add that nothing in this thread is “new” news. The Confessional Lutheran understanding of the Papacy has never been “hidden.” Nothing is being “brought to light.” For goodness sake, it’s on the Internet! But explanations from Lutheran authorities continue to be ignored by some posters in favor of amateur, anti-Lutheran polemics. I hope the intelligent reader can understand from your post why many of the regular Lutherans here have lately become frustrated with the unusual level of intellectual disrespect – uncharacteristic of CAF.

What I find most disheartening is that this is not the approach taken by other Catholics, or the Church, including Benedict XVI, who is perhaps the greatest theologian of our time (not just within Catholicism, but all Christendom!). If that magnificent mind could consider Confessio Augustana “Catholic,” encourage documents like the JDDJ, publicly lobby for corporate reunion, specifically greet the LCMS by name, and pray with Lutherans – why doesn’t this mindset trickle into the laity?
Don-

It is news to some folks who simply haven’t researched Lutheranism very thoroughly. The gang here may be a bit unusual in that regard since apologetics is a hobby for many who hang out in this forum. But I’d be willing to bet that even many Lutherans are unaware of some of the stuff currently under discussion.

I do agree that these FAIR criticisms are not impeding the progress of ecumencial discussions, but one wonders why calls to remove some of the most offensive material from your decidedly “Luther-an” patrimony haven’t trickled into the offices of the LCMS leadership.
 
👍 Thank you, Jon. I wish I had the patience to respond as you do, but I am a poor, sinful, wretched being-- chiefest of sinners. And so I ask all of my CAF friends to pray for me, as I do for them.

I’d only add that nothing in this thread is “new” news. The Confessional Lutheran understanding of the Papacy has never been “hidden.” Nothing is being “brought to light.” For goodness sake, it’s on the Internet! But explanations from Lutheran authorities continue to be ignored by some posters in favor of amateur, anti-Lutheran polemics. I hope the intelligent reader can understand from your post why many of the regular Lutherans here have lately become frustrated with the unusual level of intellectual disrespect – uncharacteristic of CAF.

What I find most disheartening is that this is not the approach taken by other Catholics, or the Church, including Benedict XVI, who is perhaps the greatest theologian of our time (not just within Catholicism, but all Christendom!). If that magnificent mind could consider Confessio Augustana “Catholic,” encourage documents like the JDDJ, publicly lobby for corporate reunion, specifically greet the LCMS by name, and pray with Lutherans – why doesn’t this mindset trickle into the laity?
We all agree with your following statement, but not at the expense of doctrine? Surely you would agree that the CC (and the Lutheran Church) should never compromise vis-a-vis church doctrine - right brother?
encourage documents like the JDDJ, publicly lobby for corporate reunion, specifically greet the LCMS by name, and pray with Lutherans – why doesn’t this mindset trickle into the laity? __________________
 
Father K might be a better source for your question.
I have the LCMS publication and I love it. It is an excellent tool to reacquaint Lutherans to the DCs. It has more than the 7
Jon
Just as a followup that I did not have time for last night. It also contains The Prayer of Manasseh, 1 and 2 Macc, 1 & 2 Esdras, Psalm 151, Luther’s commentaries on the 7 plus Prayer of Manasseh (which are much more positive than one might think), Gerhard’s commentaries, and notes regarding the text throughout.

Jon
 
Let’s be optimistic for a moment. I think there is much misunderstanding regarding justification, but Catholics and Lutherans seem to be coming to the realization that they were saying the same thing but using different language.

Similarly, the Orthodox have a real issue with the filioque, but it may be that East and West simply misunderstood one another in the past and that this can be corrected.

So, is it possible that maybe Lutherans have misunderstood the re-presentation of the one sacrifice of Jesus, and if they understand it correctly and agree with it, progress might be made?

🤷
Randy,
There is room for optimism in this area.
Eucharistic sacrifice

Catholic and Lutheran Christians together recognize that in the Eucharist Jesus Christ “is present as the crucified who died for our sins and rose again for our justification, as the once-for-all sacrifice for the sins of the world”.42 This sacrifice can be neither continued, nor repeated, nor replaced, nor complemented; but rather it can and should become effective ever anew in the midst of the congregation. There are different interpretations among us regarding the nature and extent of this effectiveness.
According to Catholic teaching, in each Eucharist “a true and proper sacrifice is offered” through Christ .43 “This sacrifice is truly propitiatory and has this effect that we obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need’ (Hebrews 4, 16) … For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of the priests who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner of offering alone being different … Therefore, according to the tradition of the Apostles, it is rightly offered not only for the sins, punishments, satisfactions and other necessities of the faithful who are living, but also for those departed in Christ but not yet fully purified”.44
As members of His body the believers are included in the offering of Christ. This happens in different ways: none of them is added externally to the offering of Christ, but each derives from him and points to him:
The liturgical preparation of the Eucharist with the offering of bread and wine is part of the Eucharistic sacrifice. Above all, inner participation is necessary: awareness and confession of one’s own powerlessness and total dependence on God’s help, obedience to His commission, faith in His word and His promise.
It is in the eucharistic presence of the offered and offering Lord that those who are redeemed by Him can, in the best sense, make an offering. They bring to the Heavenly Father a gift which allows no sort of self-complacency and self-righteousness to arise. It is wholly and completely a free, unmerited gift of the love of God which is in no way merited by man; at the same time it is intimately joined with human beings, more than can be the case with anything else which could otherwise be offered: Christ has become completely ours, He is our Head. Of ourselves we have nothing and are unable to do anything. Therefore we do not point to ourselves but to Him. Of ourselves we cannot offer to God praise, glory and honor, but we offer Christ: he is praise, glory and honor. It is this act of testifying to one’s own powerlessness, of complete reliance on Christ and of offering and presenting Him to the Father which is intended when the Catholic church dares to say that not only Christ offers Himself for man, but that the church also “offers” Him. “The members of the body of Christ are united through Christ with God and with one another in such a way that they become participants in His worship, His self-offering, His sacrifice to the Father. Through this union between Christ and Christians the eucharistic assembly offers Christ’, consenting in the power of the Holy Spirit to be offered by Him to the Father. Apart from Christ, we have no gift, no worship, no sacrifice of our own to offer to God. All we can plead is Christ, the sacrificial lamb and victim, who the Father himself has given us”.45
The Lutherans have feared that the understanding of the Eucharist as propitiatory sacrifice is contrary to the uniqueness and complete sufficiency of the sacrifice of the cross and calls in question Christ’s exclusive mediation of salvation (cf. the appendix The Mass as propitiatory sacrifice). According to the interpretation of the Lutheran Reformation, the celebration of the Eucharist is wholly directed to imparting to the gathered community the gift of the sacrifice of the cross made present as the effective means of salvation, and this in such a way that the community may receive it in faith. The diminution in practice of congregational communion was regarded as scandalous, and the primary blame for this was placed on the idea of the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice. It was thought that this idea allowed for a view which made unnecessary the reception in faith of eucharistic grace and attributed an autonomous sacrificial power to the priest (cf. the Reformation polemic against the Mass as opus operatum). Therefore the Lutheran tradition avoids even today any mention of “sacrifice of the Mass”.
continued
 
On the other hand, the Lutheran Reformation affirms the understanding of the Lord’s Supper as a sacrifice of thanksgiving in return for the sacrifice of the cross present in the sacrament. This sacrifice is an expression of faith and happens in such a way “that we offer with Christ, that is, that we cast ourselves upon Christ with unwavering faith in His testament and we do not appear otherwise before God with our prayer, praise and sacrifice than through Him and His means (of salvation) and that we do not doubt that He is our own Pastor and Priest before God’s face in heaven”.46 The "eucharistic sacrifice"47 thus understood is performed by those reconciled in faith, and is expressed in thanks and praise, in invoking and confessing God, in suffering and in all the good works of believers. These are the offerings which are particularly emphasized in the Reformation teaching in connection with 1 Peter 2:5 and Romans 12:1.48
In ecumenical discussion we have learned better to understand each other’s interpretations. Research into the historical background of the reformation polemic as well as the consideration of new developments in both churches have proved especially helpful. Increasingly we recognize the interpretations of the other as a challenge to our own position and as a help in improving, deepening and enlivening it. We can thankfully record a growing convergence on many questions which have until now been difficulties in our discussions:

a. according to Catholic doctrine the sacrifice of the mass is the making present of the sacrifice of the cross. It is not a repetition of this sacrifice and adds nothing to its saving significance. When thus understood, the sacrifice of the mass is an affirmation and not a questioning of the uniqueness and full value of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross;
b. according to Catholic doctrine the ex opere operato should witness in the context of the sacramentology to the priority of God’s action. To stress this priority is likewise the concern of the Lutherans;
c. such an understanding of opus operaturn does not exclude the believing participation of the whole worshiping community: God’s action calls for this and makes it possible;
d. the conviction that the fruits of the Eucharist extend beyond the circle of those present at a celebration does not diminish the importance of active believing participation. Christ’s gift of his flesh and blood to those who receive the Eucharist in faith cannot be transferred to others. Yet we may hope, however, that He allows others to share in His help. Whether and how this happens is entirely dependent on the sovereign love of the Lord. Intercessions and intentions at the Mass for specific persons living as well as dead do not limit his freedom.
prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Jon
 
The Lutherans have feared that the understanding of the Eucharist as propitiatory sacrifice is contrary to the uniqueness and complete sufficiency of the sacrifice of the cross and calls in question Christ’s exclusive mediation of salvation (cf. the appendix The Mass as propitiatory sacrifice). According to the interpretation of the Lutheran Reformation, the celebration of the Eucharist is wholly directed to imparting to the gathered community the gift of the sacrifice of the cross made present as the effective means of salvation, and this in such a way that the community may receive it in faith. The diminution in practice of congregational communion was regarded as scandalous, and the primary blame for this was placed on the idea of the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice. It was thought that this idea allowed for a view which made unnecessary the reception in faith of eucharistic grace and attributed an autonomous sacrificial power to the priest (cf. the Reformation polemic against the Mass as opus operatum). Therefore the Lutheran tradition avoids even today any mention of “sacrifice of the Mass”.
Jon Jon-

Can you explain, in **Lutheranism for Dummies ** wording, exactly what this paragraph is identifying as the central problem(s)? I’ve read the paragraph, re-read it, and I’m still not sure what the objection is.

I’ll continue on with the next post.
 
It is not a repetition of this sacrifice and adds nothing to its saving significance.
This has always been my understanding.

Did Lutherans think Catholics believed we are actually re-sacrificing Christ in the mass?
 
=PRmerger;12597171]You find something wrong with this: find the Church Jesus established and then join it, and conform your views to Christ’s?
What do you think is the best way to find a church?
Show me any other churches that can trace their history back to Christ and the Apostles, and I’ll consider it.
(The Orthodox Church, BTW, is essentially the Catholic Church, IMHO.)
By thinking as God Himself thinks is a GREAT place to start {and finish}

Because there is but One True God

God can and DOES have just One true set of Faith beliefs that He COULD NOT have waited for Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin. Smith or anyone else; [1,200 to 1,500 YEARS] to share what logically has to be His Single set of Faith beliefs.🙂

And just as Yahweh had just One Chosen people; so Christ founded, desires and guides only HIS One True Church [historically and biblically prvable to be today’s Catholic Church]👍

God Bless you BOTH
 
=dronald;12597187]So by your own conscience you came to accept Catholicism. This was your doing based on your own research. Idk what kind of research JND Kelly, CS Lewis, WLC Craig did as well but I’m sure they all looked into it. Your fallable research against anyone elses.
My dear friend in Christ:)

One ought not exclude the Divine Presence of the Holy Spirit is such happenings.

God HEARS even those to “knock” lightly:thumbsup:

Faith is ALWAYS a gift, and offer by God: AMEN!
 
Hi ben,

Thanks for your response.

I disagree ben. In terms of vile language and offensive charges, Luther was in a class by himself, with both Protestants and Catholics in agreement on this fact.

God Blees you ben, Topper, documentation upon request of course.
Patrick Ohare in book “facts about Luther” I believe talks of “excessive language and emotion” on both sides of the issue that distort the truth.
 
Hi ben,

Thanks for your response.

I disagree ben. In terms of vile language and offensive charges, Luther was in a class by himself, with both Protestants and Catholics in agreement on this fact.

God Blees you ben, Topper, documentation upon request of course.
How about Sylvester Prieras master of sacred palace of Rome, on Luther wrote,“leper, loathsome, false libeled, calumniator, a dog and a son of a b____, born to bite and snap at the sky with his dogfish mouth having a brain of brass and a nose of iron” 1519
 
Hi ben,

Thanks for your response.

I disagree ben. In terms of vile language and offensive charges, Luther was in a class by himself, with both Protestants and Catholics in agreement on this fact.

God Blees you ben, Topper, documentation upon request of course.
Denifle, Grisar, Chochlaeus, O’Hare are all quite biased in vilifying Luther. Seems like the internet and Tan publishing house are rivaling what Chick publications are criticized for : biased propaganda ,not to mention some poor scholarship with some lack of references. Others are saying this, even some Catholic scholars (Adolph Herti, Jared Wicks, Joseph Lortz). Even the Catholic encyclopedia says Grisars work not as balanced as can be.
 
Hi Ben

As always you deserve the most respectful response possible.
Thank you
Actually not surprised. I have read or looked at a few books and was kind of surprised to say the least of his language. I will add that his contemporary Catholic responses were almost as “vivid”. Reminds me of some 19th century U.S. political campaigns and their rhetoric. Makes ours seem mild today. People were indeed more “flowery” with words back then. I have also read that one of Ignatius’s (Jesuits) goals in countering the reformation was to “clean up” the uncouth or unsavory clergy. Even popes did stuff we would be surprised at today. I grew up with "Robin Hood) and I think it was a Friar Tuck who was quite earthy (well, at least ate a lot and drank a lot, of beer) .

I think that is what I mean by context of Luther’s language. Of course he will take responsibility for his every word but I dare say he was a product of his times. Something later, even modern, historians might forget and judge him more harshly. Forgive my uncouthness but dah . What did you expect, when state/seculars dictated the way to Christ ? The counter reformation in Germany was also political, aimed at winning over not just the parishioners, but the princes, who really held the key, to go this was or that way, for Luther or against. This was Luther’s context/dilemma. Does not Edward’s address this ? I think he does with, " And their intended purpose was to rally Protestants to the defense of their faith,"
In fact, Edwards, a prominent Lutheran Scholar, is extremely honest about Luther’s character:

“By his own admission, Luther was an angry man. Anger was his special sin. But **anger could be necessary and proper – and useful. It helped him, he said, to write well, to pray, and to preach. ‘Anger refreshes all my blood, sharpens my mind, and drives away temptations,’ **he once commented.

A reading of Luther’s polemical corpus does leave the impression, however, that in his later years his anger became more shrill, and less leavened by compassion, humor, or even theological reflection. Moreover, his always pungent language became more coarse and scatological. **The targets of his ire became under his pen the vilest of hypocrites, totally wicked, and insincere, willing minions of the devil, deserving the most horrible fate.” ** Edwards, ‘Companion’, pg. 204

As we know, it was more than two years prior to his excommunication that Luther first described the Pope as the antichrist, and as Edwards notes, his hateful language only got worse as his ‘career’ as a Christian Reformer progressed.

Ben, do you know of another Christian Theologian, in all of the history of Christianity, of whom the above quote could be so true that even a member of a communion which bears his name would have to admit it?

In other words, if there has been a more hateful Christian Theologian in the last 2000 years, who might that have been?

Edwards continues on referring to Luther’s last few years of publications:

“**On the heels of these treatises he published a series of scatological and violent woodcuts that, in the most graphic terms, suggested how good Christians should treat the papacy. **In these and other treatises Luther bestialized his opponents, most frequently likening them to pigs or asses, or called them liars, murderers, and hypocrites. **They were all minions of the devil. He directed the devil to his ***, he renamed the papal decretals “decraptals’, and the Farnese pope ‘Fart-ass’ and “Her Sodomitical Hellishness Paula III and he threw around words for excrement with great abandon.” **Edwards, Companion, pg, 202.

I have been told over the years by a lot of people that this man should not have been opposed by the Church, that it should have seen the wisdom in his teachings. But then I have also been told that he was kind, loving, a mild mannered and of course, wrote great hymns, which somehow proves his ability as a Christian Theologian.

I am sure ben that I will be ‘bestialized’ for this post also, for posting the text of a Lutheran Scholar, but not of course by you. And I appreciate that.

Ben – is this the Martin Luther that you learned about in your Protestant upbringing? Do you think that his man, this particular man, should have been trusted to set out new directions in theology? Do you think that a man such as this, is the kind of man that has the kind of loving Christian heart that can properly understand the loving Christian Gospel as portrayed in Holy Scripture?

May God Continue to Bless You Ben and Happy New Year, Topper
 
Hi Jon,

Thanks for your response.
Hi Topper,

I will be brief and attempt to be as positive as I can, Topper.

Let’s assume, for a moment, that Dr. Carroll’s assessment of the events are correct, and your accusation that Melanchthon lied is accurate.
I note here Jon that you do not actually dispute Carroll’s assessment of the events, and nor do you refute my opinion that the Augsburg Confessions was not an honest representation of Lutheran teaching. If you would like to challenge Carroll’s credentials then please do so specifically. If you would like suggest that his assessment is based on a bias, then you should be able to provide at least one (other) issue on which he has shown that bias. Please feel free to provide the Carroll text that makes that point if you think so. Do you know enough about Carroll to criticize him or make generalizations?

Furthermore, Carroll’s assessment is based on the actual facts which are not in dispute. Remember that he said that:
“By July it was clear that on matters of doctrine the Lutherans at Augsburg were dissimulating, concealing their real beliefs in the hope if avoiding a final breach without making genuine concessions. On July 6** Melanchthon made the incredible statement: “We have no dogmas which differ from the Roman Church……We reverence the authority of the Pope of Rome, and are prepared to remain in allegiance to the Church if only the Pope does not repudiate us,” As it happened, on the very same day Luther, in an exposition to Archbishop Albert of Mainz**, declared: **“Remember that you are not dealing with human beings when you have affairs with the Pope and his crew, but with veritable devils’” ** Carroll, “The Cleaving of Christendom”, pg. 103

“It made no mention of Luther’s teaching on the authority of the Pope, predestination, the priesthood of all believers, indelible sacramental ordination, the number of sacraments, and purgatory, nor of his condemnation of all Masses as public or private. There were enormous omissions as everyone present [at Augsburg] knew.” Carroll, pg. 102
First of all, dissimulation is as follows according to Wiki:

“Dissimulation is a form of deception in which one conceals the truth. It consists of concealing the truth, or in the case of half-truths, **concealing parts of the truth, like inconvenient or secret information. **Dissimulation differs from simulation, in which one exhibits false information. Dissimulation commonly takes the form of concealing one’s ability in order to gain the element of surprise over an opponent.”

Jon, are you going to say that Melanchthon did NOT dissimulate in his writing of the Augsburg Confession, that he did not ‘conceal the truth’?

But I went past that when I said that Melanchthon lied at Augsburg. He said that:

**“We have no dogmas which differ from the Roman Church……We reverence the authority of the Pope of Rome, and are prepared to remain in allegiance to the Church if only the Pope does not repudiate us,” **

Jon, there are three lies in that one sentence. If you are willing to explain as to how they are not, then please do specifically. The statement that ‘we have no dogmas which differ from the Roman Church’ is pretty bald-faced.
 
Posivitvely understood, one can only then assume that articles 1 through 21 of the CA are more Catholic than either Luther or Melanchthon thought it should be. Why? Because according to Dr. Carroll, they were trying to get those at Augdburg to believe they were more Catholic than they were. Hence, Lutherans to this day have a affirmed a document more Catholic than either Luther or Melanchthon. That’s fine by me. It seems to be fine with Cardinal Ratzinger, to one degree or another.
If you would like to suggest that it doesn’t matter whether Melanchthon or Augsburg was honest, or that honestly or character matter, then please so state. If you would like to challenge Carroll on the facts, and show where the pg. 102 statement is false, then please do that.

Much is usually made of a 40 something year old inconsequential statement by Ratzinger, but in very non-specific generalized terms of course. As you well know, absolutely NOTHING came of that single sentence, which by the way, you did not bother to post.

BTW Jon, if you would like to make me the subject of posts that are not even to me, please feel free. **That would be rather than dealing with the rampant denominalization that just happened to take place in Western Christianity immediately upon Luther’s proclamation of Sola Scriptura PLUS the ‘right’ of the individual to interpret. **

You can disagree with my positions Jon if you like, but I post actual substance which supports my positions. In my opinion, your representation of the Augsburg Confession deserves to be refuted. BTW, you didn’t comment on the Lutherans refusal to return the property it had stolen from the church, nor did you comment on Luther’s statement that doctrinal union could be achieved ONLY under certain conditions:
**
“no religious settlement was possible so long as the Pope remained and the Mass was unchanged.”**

And that:

** “you are not dealing with human beings when you have affairs with the Pope and his crew, but with veritable devils’”**

How does it strike you Jon that Luther actually suggested that the Pope step down? In another quote that I could find in about 5 minutes, he actually suggested that he step down and help HIM reform the Church. That might not seem all that arrogant to some people, but to me, a faithful Catholic, I cannot even find words to describe it. Suffice it to say that Luther was accused by even his Protestant contemporaries of being ‘another pope’. In other words, there should be no pope at all, UNLESS Luther could be that ultimate authority and have the former pope help HIM achieve HIS Reformation.

Jon, these are historical FACTS, facts which are completely in opposition to the Martin Luther of popular (Protestant) “Legend”. These facts are extremely ‘under-reported’ for a reason, and that reason is that they call into question Luther’s ‘credentials’ as a credible ‘Christian Reformer’. I actually prefer to believe that your ‘problem’ is not with me so much as it is with the actual FACTS. As for my supposed ‘lack of respect’ Jon, I am at least 100 times more respectful towards Luther than he was towards his opponents.

We both have seen testimonies here on these threads from converts who have stated that at least one of the factors in their conversion was learning the truth about Luther and the early Reformation. Therefore I am compelled to correct the misunderstandings and misrepresentations that I see here, which could and do give people the wrong impression, such as about things like the Augsburg Confessions. After all, the 500 year history of Protestantism proves that it is not exactly forthcoming about the ‘less than stellar aspects’ of it’s history, including those involving it’s leaders.

God Bless You Jon, Topper
 
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