Which Churches Are Apostolic?

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Hello:

I’ve been doing some research in attempt to find out what the Apostolic Churches are… but can’t find anything that’s especially definitive.

I know that the Roman Catholic Church is Apostolic (as well as the Eastern Churches that are in communion with Rome), but are there other Apostolic Churches as well?

And if they aren’t Catholic, why are they considered to be Apostolic?

Thank you in advance for your response.
 
RastaPasta said:
Hello:

I’ve been doing some research in attempt to find out what the Apostolic Churches are… but can’t find anything that’s especially definitive.

I know that the Roman Catholic Church is Apostolic (as well as the Eastern Churches that are in communion with Rome), but are there other Apostolic Churches as well?

And if they aren’t Catholic, why are they considered to be Apostolic?

Thank you in advance for your response.
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The Catholic Church alone is Apostolic - the Church of the Apostles. It alone holds the entire deposit of faith. Now there are others - e.g. the easten orthodox who have valid apostolic succession, but this is a different thing altogether. It simply means they have valid orders.
 
There are several communions descended from the original communities of Christians founded by the Apostles and which possess, according to the Catholic Church, a valid apostolic succession. Here they are and the council/event when a separation occurred between them and the Roman Church.
  1. Church of the East - Council of Ephesus - 431 A.D.
  2. Oriental Orthodox - Council of Chalcedon - 451 A.D.
  3. Eastern Orthodox - Great Schism - 1054 A.D.
 
I believe the Church considers the Orthodox Church to be apostolic, hence the validity of their Eucharist, for instance. e.g:

*CCC#838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."**Without prejudice to the principles noted earlier, Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible. (Orientalium Ecclesiarium, 27)*In order to have valid orders, one must be able to trace oneself to the Apostles. In that sense, Orthodox are apostolic in the eyes of the Church because they are seen to have valid sacraments. This EWTN article says the Catholic Church recognizes valid sacraments thusly:*The possibility of a Catholic receiving from the minister of another church…is limited to the Orthodox Churches, other Oriental Churches, Old Catholics, Polish National and others whose sacraments are recognized by the Holy See.*I don’t see references for that assertion, but maybe it will help you proceed in your research.
 
Iotaunum said:
The Catholic Church alone is Apostolic - the Church of the Apostles. It alone holds the entire deposit of faith. Now there are others - e.g. the easten orthodox who have valid apostolic succession, but this is a different thing altogether. It simply means they have valid orders.
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“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”* Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). *

I just wanted to point something out. From the above, one can determine that although the Eastern Orthodox don’t have full communion with the Bishop of Rome, they are still within the Catholic Church because they have valid bishops.

They just don’t have the fullness of the Faith since the only thing that they lack is communion with the Successor of St. Peter.
 
To be Apostolic one must hold to Peter, and his authority. [The Pope]
 
Ottoviani said:
To be Apostolic one must hold to Peter, and his authority. [The Pope]
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No, I believe you are wrong. They have full apostolic succession although they deny the authority of the Bishop of Rome. I recommend you listen to the Holy Catholic Church in this regard since she proclaims the Eastern Churchs as Sister Churchs.

Remember they are within the Catholic Church because they have valid bishops.
 
The Orthodox are not Catholic therfore they are not in the Catholic Church.
 
Ottoviani said:
The Orthodox are not Catholic therfore they are not in the Catholic Church.
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The Orthodox are catholic, because their bishops are valid. In order for them to be Catholic, they must be in perfect communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Read my first post. The quote says that where there is a valid bishop, there is the Catholic Church. So, one can determine that although the Orthodox don’t have the fullness of the Church so to speak, they are within the Catholic Church.
 
Fascinating.

I think I’ll link to this thread next time someone demands we fully accept Catholics. 😃
 
Nine_Two said:
Fascinating.

I think I’ll link to this thread next time someone demands we fully accept Catholics. 😃
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We’re slowly instructing those that still try to say you Orthodox Christians/Catholics have no Apostolic Succession/are not part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, give us time 😉
 
I don’t believed its an infallable teaching so he his entitled to disagree with the personal papal opinion
 
Skeptic92 said:
We’re slowly instructing those that still try to say you Orthodox Christians/Catholics have no Apostolic Succession/are not part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, give us time 😉
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To be honest I almost prefer being called a heretic to being told what I believe.

Perhaps a day will come when people feel the need to assert neither. 🙂

Jharek: I won’t. 😉
 
Nine_Two said:
To be honest I almost prefer being called a heretic to being told what I believe.

Perhaps a day will come when people feel the need to assert neither. 🙂

Jharek: I won’t. 😉
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I feel that I need to apologize. I didn’t mean to offend but I was simply trying to show the Catholic position on the matter. I never meant to feel any of my Orthodox brethren uncomfortable here and as well I didn’t mean to tell any Orthodox what to believe.

I hope you accept my apologies if I offended you or any other Orthodox here.

God bless.
 
Art321 said:
I feel that I need to apologize. I didn’t mean to offend but I was simply trying to show the Catholic position on the matter. I never meant to feel any of my Orthodox brethren uncomfortable here and as well I didn’t mean to tell any Orthodox what to believe.

I hope you accept my apologies if I offended you or any other Orthodox here.

God bless.
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Don’t worry, you didn’t offend. 🙂
 
RastaPasta said:
Hello:

I’ve been doing some research in attempt to find out what the Apostolic Churches are… but can’t find anything that’s especially definitive.

I know that the Roman Catholic Church is Apostolic (as well as the Eastern Churches that are in communion with Rome), but are there other Apostolic Churches as well?

And if they aren’t Catholic, why are they considered to be Apostolic?

Thank you in advance for your response.
Click to expand...
The Churches that have maintained the valid Apostolic succession can confect the Holy Eucharist. Since beginning to ordain women the Old Catholic Churches originating from Utrecht have ceased to be Apostolic.

ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur395.htm

Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 §3).

usccb.org/about/divine-worship/documents/guidelines-for-the-reception-of-communion.cfm
 
Art321 said:
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”* Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). *

I just wanted to point something out. From the above, one can determine that although the Eastern Orthodox don’t have full communion with the Bishop of Rome, they are still within the Catholic Church because they have valid bishops.

They just don’t have the fullness of the Faith since the only thing that they lack is communion with the Successor of St. Peter.
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I do not have to tell you that St Ignatius was referring to Bishops in communion with the Church. We know that bishops can be in schism, and one cannot be in schism and in the Church at the same time. If St Ignatius seen a rebel bishop - say an arian - who left the Church and began teaching another gospel, he would not say “there is the Catholic Church” for it is possible for a bishop with valid order to leave the Church. By the way, the Catholic Church is not something bigger than the Catholic Church under the Pope. There is only one. Yes, the eastern Christians do have valid sacraments and orders, but this is not all there is to being Apostolic. The Apostolic faith includes the dogma of Papal primacy and infallibility. So the Apostolic Church is not the same as Aspostolic succession.
 
Iotaunum said:
The Apostolic faith includes the dogma of Papal primacy and infallibility. So the Apostolic Church is not the same as Aspostolic succession.
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Interesting statement. The early Church and Fathers held to the dogma of papal infallibality?
 
Credo_ergo_sum said:
Interesting statement. The early Church and Fathers held to the dogma of papal infallibality?
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“If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4, 251 AD)

Cyprian
 
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