Which Homosexuals Are "Incurable"?

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

okay I could be wrong here but you are splitting hairs.

Not really–“men who have sex with men” includes sexually active same-sex attracted men, sex workers who self-identity as opposite-sex attracted but are “gay for pay” as they say, opposite-sex attracted folks who are “experimenting” for whatever reason, bisexuals, and as you later acknowledge, rather desperate folks in prison. Men who have sex with men may include a significant proportion of same-sex attracted men, but not all same-sex attracted men are men who have sex with men. Your original posts referred to “SSA” as if it were identical with the “men who have sex with men” population, which is not accurate, therefore the conclusions you have drawn regarding the same-sex attracted population based on your readings of the statistics acquire a patina of dubiousness.

In 2009, MSM accounted for 61% of all new HIV infections.

Okay.

this is true as to the distinction between SSA and MSM okay but the difference between the two is basically that one involves the method of transmission.

Okay.

So if you are not a SSA active male but you fit into the MSM category you got raped.

Something has definitely gone wrong, I would agree. I don’t know, though, that being raped makes one “fit” into the “men who have sex with men” category–as if the “big deal” with rape was that it shifted how one could be taxonomically categorized for statistical purposes. Moreover, it’s unclear if the CDC is considering criminal sexual activity in it’s male-to-male sexual contact category. Regardless, I would imagine that we can afford to be less blase about throwing around “rape” as if it existed just to help us make our points.

The point it that the behavior itself is risky.

Lots of behaviors are risky, but the risks are generally mitigated by taking proper precautions.

It is inherently dangerous as HIV is transmitted so much more rapidly by this pathway.

“Rapidly,” I’m not sure is the right word. I think IV drug use provides a more rapid and fool-proof route of transmission than sexual activity generally as the chances of an HIV- “active” sexual partner contracting the virus from his HIV+ “passive” partner is considerably lower than the other way around…and that assumes that no protection is being used. With protection, the risk is, again, statistically negligible either way.

cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm
You are in fact quibbling over minor differences in the labels even the CDC admits
“Gay and bisexual men are more severely affected by HIV than any other group in the United States (US).”

I noticed that, too. But this from here (cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/index.htm) provides the necessary contextual gloss: "As a group, gay, bisexual, and other MSM have an increased chance of being exposed to HIV because of the large number of MSM living with HIV. " From which we learn that sexual activity in itself does not of itself account for the increased chance of being exposed to HIV, but that it is the increased probability that a man who has sex with men will have sex with a man who is HIV+ (if he is not too careful) which accounts for the risk. If one fits in the men who have sex with men category, protection should be used, promiscuity avoided, awareness increased, discernment with regard to potential partners practiced, and the riskiest behaviors critically evaluated and (if and when necessary) eschewed. That seems to be a generous understanding of the CDC’s own takeaway regarding its statistics.

If this was hendra or swine flu it would be illegal.

I really don’t think you’re quite understanding the disease, its social context, or what the CDC is actually saying. You’re finding it easy, armed with a few statistics, to be outraged, alarmed and a bit alarmist. Which is all pretty easy and understandable. And you’re not wrong that the epidemic continues to be scandalous…but not, perhaps, for the reasons you think it should be scandalous.

And while I understand the CDC’s point in publishing its statistics, I remain agnostic as to what your ultimate point is…

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Now, convince a 20 year old Marine, who has been under fire, and who likes to jump out of helos, that he should not be taking such risks.

The military does have policies to try to reduce risky sexual behavior. For example, each service member is tested annually for HIV antibodies, and also before any major schooling. A positive test result stops that career in place. That is a strong incentive for many men.

Epan,

Are you in the marines, under fire, jumping out of helos, taking risks?

 

[epan]

Epan,

Are you in the marines, under fire, jumping out of helos, taking risks?

No. But I was when I was 20 years old, Today, I am in the Navy, treating 20 year old Marines.

 

[epan]

on the CDC stats I have quoted at least once and talked about 2 or 3 times now. where were you. There is a raging HIV/AIDS problem in the SSA male active population this is born out in the stats. it is easy to see and read if you take the time. Please don’t denigrate me personally for what the CDC spelled out in black and white for all to see. Here is the link reposed if you missed it last time.

cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#hivaidsexposure

I was not denigrating you. You make statements which are not supported by anything that is in the CDC statistics. SSA men are not virtually guaranteed to be infected with HIV, for being sexually active. That is not true, and it is not born out by CDC statistics. Nor, is anything approaching that stated anywhere by anyone who is familiar with HIV.

As has been pointed out, the risk of transmission is quite small for MSM who practice safer sex techniques.

 

[epan]

Epan,

Are you in the marines, under fire, jumping out of helos, taking risks?

oh… Coptic… it’s ‘Marines,’ not ‘marines,’ if you don’t mind.

 

[down_under]

no I don’t think you understand the problem. There is no precaution you can take with a HIV+ person that will help you avoid transmission. Condoms are great for stopping pregnancy but do squat for stopping disease. avoiding the situation is the only precaution you can really take. It is that bad. You cannot marginalize a number that big by saying that it all falls into some other portion of MSM. I’m being a bit alarmist because that number is a bit alarming. It does involve the SSA active men which is the largest representative number in that group of people mentioned. When a behavior is a couple of hundred times more likely to give you a disease that can kill you you avoid it and tell others. you don’t continue on with it.

Even if you were to crunch the #'s a little closer to home you would still come up with a relative risk at least 100 times higher. Bottom line sins are sins because they have spiritual and temporal consequences and these consequences are life threatening. If a person can change they should if they can’t they should make meetings like alcoholics. If they want to live.

 

[down_under]

I was not denigrating you. You make statements which are not supported by anything that is in the CDC statistics. SSA men are not virtually guaranteed to be infected with HIV, for being sexually active. That is not true, and it is not born out by CDC statistics. Nor, is anything approaching that stated anywhere by anyone who is familiar with HIV.

As has been pointed out, the risk of transmission is quite small for MSM who practice safer sex techniques.

that is just it. There are no Safer sex techniques other than not having any. and yes people who study HIV are saying things like this. The CDC stats are bearing this out. If you want to agree to disagree thats fine, but my position is your dead wrong. I have the stats to prove it. You don’t like them, but they are there. They say if you continue to live the SSA active male (normally promiscusous not in all cases) lifestyle you are going to get this disease.

No matter what you think of the way Mark Regnerus crunched his numbers you can’t dismiss the fact that he talked to 3000 people 250 all up had SSA “parents”(were raised for some time in that situation) and only 1 of those arrangements existed for the child’s whole life. The vast majority broke apart very quickly. most of the studies I have seen suggest the average is 6-8 partners a year for SSA active men. They are posted a little earlier If you want to look. Most of the parents in the study(Mark Regnerus) did not have a solid seamless orientation. Over time it went back and forth. That and the tendency for men to not be monogamous even in semi stable relationships does not make for disease prevention. This is why the disease is spreading and no way of objecting to the MSM catagory limits the plague among SSA active males very much. SSA active males make up the majority of that statistic. No other catagory lumped in with SSA active males is anything like 2 % of the population. No other catagory is even close.

 

[epan]

no I don’t think you understand the problem. There is no precaution you can take with a HIV+ person that will help you avoid transmission. Condoms are great for stopping pregnancy but do squat for stopping disease. avoiding the situation is the only precaution you can really take. It is that bad.

You are correct in saying that the only way to be 100% certain of zero risk for HIV (and all other STD) infection is abstinence. Otherwise your statement is false, except that condoms provide little protection from SOME STD’s, HPV being the most notable.

I have no reason to think that you are intentionally making such false claims. But you might consider consulting more accurate and authoritative sources. Proper condom use does help prevent HIV transmission very effectively. Condoms can fail. A lubricant, if used, should be compatible with the material that the condom is made of. One failure, may result in infection. Many failures may not result in infection. There are a number of variables. The failure rate of properly used condoms is very low. In fact, many young men, become expert condom users before they ever have sex with others. In my own medical practice, I find that some guys tell me that they masturbate with condoms, in order to eroticize using them. I know… not music to the ears of Catholics. I hope it is not TMI. But it is true, and I work with a population which wants accurate STD risk information, and which is quite open to discuss such things.

The University of California is also currently studying the effect of checking for blood serum viral load, instead of only checking for antibodies. It is known that an HIV+ person is the most contagious in the earliest stages of the disease, before the immune system has fully engaged. HIV damages the immune system by rapid mutation. It is the most rapidly mutating retrovirus which we know of. When a person is infected, the immune system launches a defense. The virus mutates rapidly. The immune system responds again. During the period of successful immune responses, there are few, if any, outward symptoms of disease, and viral load remains low. Eventually, the mutations exhaust the immune systems ability to respond. This is when the patient converts from HIV+ to AIDS. So, during the phase of initial infection, before the immune system has fully engaged, is when the viral load is at its highest, many times higher than in the later course of the infection. This is when HIV+ people are the most contagious, and also often unaware that they are infected. They may even have had an antibody test with negative results.

The UCSD testing protocol, which they call the EARLY Test, is the test for antibodies first, and then if the antibody test is negative, to test for the virus. By catching more people, and when they are the most contagious, they hope to demonstrate a reduced transmission rate.

The next thing that you might like to know about HIV infection, if you are interested in the topic, is that many HIV+ people can be medicated to achieve an unmeasurable viral load, for much of the course of the disease. In other words, the level of virus in their system, when the disease is treated, is so low that it is unmeasurable by current techniques. These people are considered to be extremely low risk for transmission to others. Yet, they are still advised to use safer sex techniques, which makes them all but zero risk to others. The risk is actually too low to express in any meaningful way.

The final point that I would like to make, is that there is a very alarming practice of HIV+ people, who assume that because they are HIV+, then they have nothing to lose by practicing unsafe sex with other HIV+ people. As I pointed out, the HIV retrovirus damages the immune system through continuous and rapid mutation. When two HIV+ people exchange body fluids, then they are adding their respective viral mutations to each other. When there are multiple partners, then this effect is compounded.

I attended medical school in the SF Bary area, where there is a large HIV+ and AIDS population. There is also many years of research, and knowledge managing the disease in that community. Part of my training included formal instruction and clinical experience with this population.

I am not managing any HIV+ patients at this time, but I am quite familiar with the disease, including the risk factors for infection, and methods for reducing the risk of infection, one of which is proper condom use. If you would like more information about reducing the risk of HIV infection, I can refer you to some good sources, and also provide more information myself.

Please don’t spread dangerous misinformation regarding such a serious disease. You are correct that abstinence is the only certain way to prevent HIV and other STD infection. However, your other statements on the topic are untrue, and they would not be helpful to someone who wants accurate information regarding sexual practices and STD risk.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

no I don’t think you understand the problem. There is no precaution you can take with a HIV+ person that will help you avoid transmission. Condoms are great for stopping pregnancy but do squat for stopping disease. avoiding the situation is the only precaution you can really take. It is that bad. You cannot marginalize a number that big by saying that it all falls into some other portion of MSM. I’m being a bit alarmist because that number is a bit alarming. It does involve the SSA active men which is the largest representative number in that group of people mentioned. When a behavior is a couple of hundred times more likely to give you a disease that can kill you you avoid it and tell others. you don’t continue on with it.

Even if you were to crunch the #'s a little closer to home you would still come up with a relative risk at least 100 times higher. Bottom line sins are sins because they have spiritual and temporal consequences and these consequences are life threatening. If a person can change they should if they can’t they should make meetings like alcoholics. If they want to live.

Friend, you are having a problem with reality which is leading you into irrationality and paranoia. What you wrote regarding condom-use doing nothing to stop disease is highly inaccurate. But, happily, Epan’s post immediately above (#186) is a great resource for accurate information. I can corroborate that information with experience–a family member received an infected blood transfusion in the late '70’s, was diagnosed with HIV in the late '80’s and died of AIDS in the early '90’s. During the decade in which his HIV+ status was unknown, his wife was certainly at risk but did not contract the virus (she didn’t contract the virus after he was diagnosed either). I’m also familiar with folks who were in relationships with HIV+ men and who, having taken proper precautions, remained HIV-. The real scandal of continued HIV infection rates is that in many folks it requires *serial *recklessness or actively seeking to be infected in order to contract the virus. For those with a death-wish, there’s little one can do, but for those whose serial recklessness is a function of their lack of education, taking the time to learn a little about prevention could go a long way to keeping them HIV-. The information is there for the knowing but is sometimes ignored or not put into practice.

Learning a little will also help those whose lack of education on the topic leads them to paranoia or irrational alarmism. Again, Epan’s post is a good resource and I highly recommend you read it through. I would further caution you: sometimes it is very pleasant and very empowering to feel outraged or alarmed by something–it boosts our egos and helps us feel righteous, if only by the way of righteous indignation. Please don’t cling to the comfort of your outrage–it won’t bear good moral fruit in the long run.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Friend, you are having a problem with reality which is leading you into irrationality and paranoia. Epan’s post is a good resource for accurate information. I can corroborate that information with experience–a family member received an infected blood transfusion in the late '70’s, was diagnosed with HIV in the late '80’s and died in the early '90’s. During the decade in which his HIV+ status was unknown, his wife was certainly at risk, but did not contract the virus (she didn’t contract the virus after he was diagnosed either). I’m also familiar with folks who were in relationships with HIV+ men and who, having taken proper precautions, remained HIV-. The real scandal of continued HIV infection rates is that in many folks it requires *serial *recklessness or actively seeking to be infected in order to contract the virus. For those with a death-wish, there’s little one can do, but for those whose serial recklessness is a function of their lack of education, taking the time to learn a little about prevention could go a long way to keeping them HIV-. Learning a little will also help those whose lack of education on the topic leads them to paranoia or irrational alarmism. Again, Epan’s post is a good resource and I highly recommend you read it through a couple times over.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

I have no problem with reality.

San Francisco General Hospital was a haven for those infected with HIV. The vast majority were homosexuals. I worked there 6 years in School & Residency. I received lectures concerning this population and viewed it first hand.

There were few blood transfusion victims of HIV. Those at greatest risk were the Hemopheliac population because of the requirement for repeated transfusion of clotting factors. This population represented few if any infected with HIV.

Drug addicts represented a large population of patients at SFGH and this population did not represent a large percentage of HIV infected patients. There may have been a few and to my recollection these had other risk factors that led to infection.

Homosexuals represented the largest population of those infected with HIV.

Kaposi Sarcoma patients were exclusively Homosexuals.

Hemopheliacs cannot dismiss the need for occasional blood transfusion.

Drug addicts should stop using drugs.

Prevention for homosexuals infected with HIV is abstinence. This is the guaranteed way to prevent transmission.

 

[epan]

Grace & Peace!

Friend, you are having a problem with reality which is leading you into irrationality and paranoia. Epan’s post is a good resource for accurate information. I can corroborate that information with experience–a family member received an infected blood transfusion in the late '70’s, was diagnosed with HIV in the late '80’s and died in the early '90’s. During the decade in which his HIV+ status was unknown, his wife was certainly at risk, but did not contract the virus (she didn’t contract the virus after he was diagnosed either). I’m also familiar with folks who were in relationships with HIV+ men and who, having taken proper precautions, remained HIV-. The real scandal of continued HIV infection rates is that in many folks it requires *serial *recklessness or actively seeking to be infected in order to contract the virus. For those with a death-wish, there’s little one can do, but for those whose serial recklessness is a function of their lack of education, taking the time to learn a little about prevention could go a long way to keeping them HIV-. Learning a little will also help those whose lack of education on the topic leads them to paranoia or irrational alarmism. Again, Epan’s post is a good resource and I highly recommend you read it through a couple times over.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

down under…

My concern would be that if someone actually believed that proper condom use provided no reduction in risk for STD transmission, then that person might decide not to use condoms at all.

Please do not try to convince people that condoms will not help to protect them from STD’s. They might believe you, and as a result put themselves at higher risk than they might otherwise.

I would encourage you to spend as much energy as you like promoting the message that abstinence is the best way to avoid STD’s altogether. That message is accurate, and it could help prevent behavior which puts a person at risk, if taken to heart.

 

[epan]

Mark,

I have no problem with reality.

San Francisco General Hospital was a haven for those infected with HIV. The vast majority were homosexuals. I worked there 6 years in School & Residency. I received lectures concerning this population and viewed it first hand.

There were few blood transfusion victims of HIV. Those at greatest risk were the Hemopheliac population because of the requirement for repeated transfusion of clotting factors. This population represented few if any infected with HIV.

Drug addicts represented a large population of patients at SFGH and this population did not represent a large percentage of HIV infected patients. There may have been a few and to my recollection these had other risk factors that led to infection.

Homosexuals represented the largest population of those infected with HIV.

Kaposi Sarcoma patients were exclusively Homosexuals.

Hemopheliacs cannot dismiss the need for occasional blood transfusion.

Drug addicts should stop using drugs.

Prevention for homosexuals infected with HIV is abstinence. This is the guaranteed way to prevent transmission.

Coptic -

I think we all agree on the value of abstinence in this context.

Do you agree with down under’s opinion that safer sex practices provide no reduction in risk for STD transmission? Or would you agree that safer sex practices are worthwhile to reduce risk?

 

[aprilfloyd]

So far you haven’t provided an inkling of proof to support this. Please do so.

We have evolved as heterosexual and homosexual human beings. I am not an evolutionary biologist - but as far as I can see it is an excepted position and taught as such

 

[dshix]

We have evolved as heterosexual and homosexual human beings. I am not an evolutionary biologist - but as far as I can see it is an excepted position and taught as such

Um, that isn’t proof. That’s your opinion.

 

[Marcin_L]

Just to make it clear, it is totally impossible he’ll become straight. Prayer cannot change biology. Accept him for who he is and openly discuss your lives with each other as siblings should.

God bless.

This suggests that the main drive of that person are his sexual instincts, which effectively reduces him to an animal. Does it mean that if he was hungry and there was no food around he should be excused to steal?

We should NOT accept sexual deviants practices but criticize those as often as possible, even at the cost of political incorrectness. Obviously, it should be sin we hate, not the sinner himself.

I know what I am talking about; I lived in the sin of homosexual practices from my teens to the age of 25, when I was saved by the grace of the Lord. My tendences are my cross, for which I thank Him. I will bear it through the rest of my life, just as alcoholics always remain alcoholics. Still, I fight my war every day and I defeat devil. Do not say it cannot be cured. I have a loving, happy family and a child - all thanks to God’s grace.

 

[speakttruth]

AIDS started in Africa 50-100 years ago, and was transmitted from primates to homo sapiens. It began as a heterosexually transmitted disease.

There were probably cases which were never diagnosed in Europe. However, the first that I know of was a British sailor in 1959. It is not known how he contracted it. He had only left G.B. once, and had shore leave in Gibraltar. A pathologist had the foresight to freeze tissue samples, and the diagnosis was made decades later, through bioengineering studies.

Blood samples from West Africa, taken in the 1940’s, indicate that HIV was present.

More than 25 million people have died from AIDS. More than 33 million people are currently infected. More than 60 percent of these people are in Africa, where the means of transmission is heterosexual. Approximately 5 percent of HIV infections worldwide are in the US, where the transmission method is largely homosexual activity.

The disease spread slowly in Africa through the 1960’s and 1970’s, until it reached the urban areas and infected prostitutes. The prostitutes transmitted it to a wide variety of people, but particularly truck drivers. From there it was spread worldwide by air travelers.

There are a number of theories about how the virus made the leap from simians to humans. It could have been from handling infected meat. It could have been from some infected vaccines. Nobody knows for sure.

**I knew it started from a monkey, I meant after that, I may have had some misinformation, and some misunderstandings. I do apologize, but your right it isn’t completely sure how it spread, except one thing, it is clear annul sex transmits the disease faster and it seems to be a high rate of Aids in the homosexual activity. Even with condoms there are other related STD’s because of the ruptures inside the colon.
Forgive me for any mistakes.

Don’t shoot me either. Were on the same side. Jesus Christ
GB **

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I know what I am talking about; I lived in the sin of homosexual practices from my teens to the age of 25, when I was saved by the grace of the Lord. My tendences are my cross, for which I thank Him. I will bear it through the rest of my life, just as alcoholics always remain alcoholics. Still, I fight my war every day and I defeat devil. Do not say it cannot be cured. I have a loving, happy family and a child - all thanks to God’s grace.

I’m very glad that you have a loving and happy family and that your experience of God’s grace has had a profound effect on your life.

I’m curious, though–do you considered yourself “cured” even though you appear to deal with unwanted attractions or tendencies on a daily basis?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic -

 

[CopticChristian]

I am not an evolutionary biologist - but as far as I can see it is an excepted position and taught as such

April,

This statement may be considered contrary to Church teaching…

We have evolved as heterosexual and homosexual human beings.

In discussin evolution, it is error to deny Adam and Eve, Humani Generous…if you deny Adam and Eve then there is no evolving of Adam and Eve to Adam and Steve.

You may want to read Humani Generous…

 

[CopticChristian]

This suggests that the main drive of that person are his sexual instincts, which effectively reduces him to an animal. Does it mean that if he was hungry and there was no food around he should be excused to steal?

We should NOT accept sexual deviants practices but criticize those as often as possible, even at the cost of political incorrectness. Obviously, it should be sin we hate, not the sinner himself.

I know what I am talking about; I lived in the sin of homosexual practices from my teens to the age of 25, when I was saved by the grace of the Lord. My tendences are my cross, for which I thank Him. I will bear it through the rest of my life, just as alcoholics always remain alcoholics. Still, I fight my war every day and I defeat devil. Do not say it cannot be cured. I have a loving, happy family and a child - all thanks to God’s grace.

Marcin,

Blessings on your life. I believe that to say you changed your thinking that caused you to change your actions with the grace of God brought you joy. I am not a fan of cure…

If you believe you changed your thinking, that changed your actions…then understand that in your mind all you have are thoughts and feelings and if you can change your thinking then you can change the feelings you associate with whatever you see in the world…this you can take to the bank…