Which Homosexuals Are "Incurable"?

[mitex]

If you decide you can’t change yourself, you never will, and that is the road of sin.

I don’t feel I’m not jumping to conclusions however if I am I I owe you an apology then.

But a generalized statement like above is concerning. Define “change” for us. Is it change in sexual orientation? Chastity? Change in sexual identity? What do you mean by change?

 

[dshix]

I believe that any homosexual who loves God and puts that love above all else in life can live a chaste life. As an earlier poster said, it is his cross to bear. My prayer is that he will find strength to carry this cross until death. That families and friends will accept and support him in this challenge. He must also know that God loves him as if there were no other. We are to conduct ourselves as God commands. From first grade we learn that we are on this earth to know, love, and serve God and be happy with Him in heaven. Each of us has a different path in our journey to holiness. It would be good to know when we draw our last breath that we will see the face of God, Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the angels and saints.

 

[dshix]

I don’t feel I’m not jumping to conclusions however if I am I I owe you an apology then.

But a generalized statement like above is concerning. Define “change” for us. Is it change in sexual orientation? Chastity? Change in sexual identity? What do you mean by change?

Heh, that statement was not generalized, it was directly said towards the post which I was replying to. That poster was saying that he had these inclinations and couldn’t change them, therefore he could not stop sinning; I was opposing that viewpoint. The poster in question named himself “homosexual” and made no mention of celibacy, so I perceived him as sexually active.

He is free to correct me on that, however, if I am wrong.

EDIT: Going back and reading it, I see it is likely I misunderstood. I will await the aforementioned poster’s judgement.

 

[hudson]

Sodomy is always morally sinful and it is one of the sins that cries out to god for vengeance.

 

[mitex]

Heh, that statement was not generalized, it was directly said towards the post which I was replying to. That poster was saying that he had these inclinations and couldn’t change them, therefore he could not stop sinning; I was opposing that viewpoint. The poster in question named himself “homosexual” and made no mention of celibacy, so I perceived him as sexually active.

He is free to correct me on that, however, if I am wrong.

EDIT: Going back and reading it, I see it is likely I misunderstood. I will await the aforementioned poster’s judgement.

If you meant by “change” being to stop sinning then we’re agreed. I owe you an apology. I am sorry.

 

[dshix]

If you meant by “change” being to stop sinning then we’re agreed. I owe you an apology. I am sorry.

No problem. Impatience runs high and everyone is prone to making mistakes when we are on this topic, for some reason, lol.

 

[CJeplin]

Thanks to all who replied.

While I did not get a direct answer to any of my questions, and while I was hoping for something far different, something that would explain and provide the definitions I had requested, I still got an answer, albeit the type that can only come when you look at all the posts here in this thread as a whole.

I will not be returning to get any further information or requesting any further (name removed by moderator)ut, but my sincere thanks nonetheless.

 

[DrTaffy]

Sexual orientation is definitely biological, assuming you have experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, I have that same attraction to the same sex and none towards the opposite. …]
so please accept the reality that sexual orientation is as unchangeable as race.

I fully agree that sexuality is at least partly and significantly biological. And yes, there are many studies showing genetic and physiological differences between gay and straight men. We don’t have a perfectly clear picture yet, to put it mildly, but I think we can rule out there being no biological influence in any cases.

It is equally clear that many devout christians have tried very very hard to change their own sexuality or those of others, and failed. There are also claims of successes, but then it is hard to know if those successes will last - many of the dramatic failures that have graced the media believed themselves (or pretended) to be ‘cured’ for a while.

I strongly disagree that sexuality cannot change ever. See the case of Chris Birch, for example. In summary, a stroke caused him to switch from a stereotypical heterosexual rugby player to a stereotypical gay hairdresser.

 

[down_under]

You must not know any openly gay or lesbian friends or family members. Well let me introduce myself, a gay Catholic living in Michigan. I can assure you that just as I am ethnically Chaldean, my sexual orientation is gay.

Sexual orientation is definitely biological, assuming you have experienced sexual attraction to the opposite sex, I have that same attraction to the same sex and none towards the opposite. Some people may be attracted to both, some to neither. It is unacceptable to think one can just change their orientation as God has made them is completely unfounded, so please accept the reality that sexual orientation is as unchangeable as race.

God bless.

No I have to say you are quite mistaken here. (and quite possibly because you are too close to the subject matter to objectively comment) science disagrees with you. People have been changing there orientation for years with quite a bit of success. Some fail this is true. Some go back to the bottle and the cigarettes as well. Some put the weight back on and some light up the 8 ball that don’t mean it is not possible to change. The fact of the matter is it does happen and can be done, but won’t be done if the attempt is not honestly made by a person who wants to change. When people who want to change are given the help the need the success rates are as high as for any other addictive habit. However, to suggest a dividing line by which one can decide which ones can and cannot change.

The ones that honestly try might. The ones who revel in the life style will go on until promiscuity does to them what it does to heterosexual people. Only according to the CDC the HIV rate among SSAD men is astronomical so it will probably happen faster which is unfortunate. Now there are those who suffer SSAD who do not revel in the life style. Not being promiscuous has benefits regardless of who’s bed you are in. It is the promiscuity that tends to do the real damage to the body.

 

[down_under]

The lack of charitable responses on here is a disappointment as usual.

One person has said it’s all a choice. Another has said homosexuals don’t exist. Another has called it an addiction (how could it be? I’ve always been celibate and still have a homosexual orientation).

As a celibate homosexual I can assure you the Catholic Church distinguishes between thoughts and actions. Only homosexual acts are sinful. A homosexual orientation (or “tendency” as Church language would call it) is not sinful although it is “objectively disordered.” However it is not a pathology because the Church views a person with a homosexual orientation as not disordered (it’s pretty confusing at times).

Now onto change. Some will claim homosexuality can be treated and “cured.” Personally I spent two years in so called “ex-gay” therapy and my orientation only got stronger and I was really hurt. Advocates of ex-gay therapy like Joseph Nicolsi will scream at the top of their lungs that no one ever gets hurt. But I can testify there are those like me who have been hurt by it. Other people may have a more positive experience.

I’m not going to say “changing sexuality” is impossible or is possible. I can only say it didn’t work for me and that I was hurt by the experience.

Celibacy (or as Catholics call it “chastity”) is fair by an easier option (and if I had my way if would be the only option available).

You know I’m a celibate homosexual. I never changed my sexual orientation.

perhaps it is my personal bias against the charge of lack of charity by people who are in some way gay friendly. So let me be more clear. I rarely ever post made, irritable, upset, or off hand. (unless you argument cannot even come close to being logical this tends to happen with several atheists on this site. I don’t know why they bother to post if they don’t intend to engage in logical debate). Nor do I tend to hold grudges against persons simply because of there particular difficulty.

one person said its a choice, and the act (as you are a living demonstration of) is and can be curtailed with effort (the same as a guy who likes to use women and toss them when he is done with them he has a choice… of actions)

one person said homosexuals don’t exist. okay I will have to read some of the posts I skimmed because that will be an interesting argument if indeed he made one.

another its an addiction. what is so hard about the fact that the thrill of sex can be and tends to be addictive. Sex sells because its addictive and the whole world buys products based on it. (what does a 3/4 naked women got to do with car insurance anyway )

but for the record in case there is any doubt… very rarely do I pay attention to WHO posted something until after I read what they have written. Because of this I don’t tend to keep tabs on the lives of people I don’t really know from Adam. You know who you are. I assume you are doing well and I pray all continues to go well for you. Just don’t assume people are pointing fingers at you. Now if you start to rant and splutter and go on without making any coherent sense, then my friend we are going to have a problem.

 

[Baelor]

Not true. Not true in the least. There is no such thing as a “homosexual person” in the sense that their body itself is homosexual. Biology says that your brother is a man, and should be married to a woman if he partakes in any sexual activity at all.

But sometimes biology/physiology/neurology is messed up, like someone born with polydactyly or a disorder like Trisomy 21 or…homosexuality.

If you accept, in his presence, that he cannot change, you are affirming his sin. You must love him and accept who he is as a person, but not as a homosexual. Always be attempting to convert him.

He is not sinning by being a homosexual; it describes a state of mind, not action.

In order for you to understand, you need to understand science. Science is on my side here, because there is definitely not such a thing as a “homosexual” bodytype.

Few, if any, legitimate scientists will claim that homosexuality can be cured in everyone.

Inclinations are not bodily realities. They are just inclinations. Just because you feel an attraction to the same sex doesn’t mean that your genitalia are somehow different from everybody else.

Since sexual attraction is not a matter of genitalia but of mind, that is irrelevant.

False. If you prove that, I will readily believe it, but I know it is false because I have seen many studies to the contrary, and in addition, I know personal family members who have grown up thinking they were “homosexual” and then chose to change their lifestyle and are now upstanding people.

Homosexuals can be upstanding people, too. In addition, the fact that some persons cease to have homosexual attraction does not mean that all persons with SSA can or will.

 

[down_under]

But sometimes biology/physiology/neurology is messed up, like someone born with polydactyly or a disorder like Trisomy 21 or…homosexuality.

He is not sinning by being a homosexual; it describes a state of mind, not action.

Since sexual attraction is not a matter of genitalia but of mind, that is irrelevant.

Homosexuals can be upstanding people, too. In addition, the fact that some persons cease to have homosexual attraction does not mean that all persons with SSA can or will.

okay do you remember just 1 post back (you don’t have to go far) when I said I like a nice logical debate. Ya first you state homosexuality is like biology (physiology and neurology fall into this greater category, but thank you for being specific) Then you turn right around 2 sentences later and tell the other poster its not the genitalia but of the mind. You just said homosexuality is like biology. Your argument is not internally consistent you can’t have both.

First no one has ever successfully demonstrated scientifically (that my small mind is aware of) that homosexuality is genomic, that is there is a gene or series of genes that cause homosexuality. There is good scientific evidence that if a strong male or female figure in a given persons life beats that person, physically or emotionally, for a series of years, that person is very likely to deviate from the norm. That the given person is likely to be severely effected by this trauma to the point that studies have found up to 80% of people who suffer SSA were traumatised.
home60515.com/3.html
It is a psychological thing and not in the realm of biology.

Your last point however I would have to agree with. There is no evidence that all homosexuals can change there orientation under the current level of society wide propaganda that is constantly thrown in our faces about it. It does not matter if it is heterosexual over sexualisation or SSA over sexualisation the point is it is definitely a constant bombardment of sex that saturates our culture which makes basic chastity difficult no matter who you are if you already have difficulty in this area. If it is your sin then you are getting no help from the culture at large which demands sex any way you want it with no rules no matter who gets hurt. Even if that person is you.

 

[Baelor]

Ya first you state homosexuality is like biology…Then you turn right around 2 sentences later and tell the other poster its not the genitalia but of the mind.

First, I do not know the cause of homosexuality. It could be psychological, biological, neurological, etc.

You just said homosexuality is like biology. Your argument is not internally consistent you can’t have both.

That is not the case. The mind is part of the body. If the genesis is neurological or somehow physiological, then homosexuality is like biology. If the genesis is psychological and occurs after birth, that is something else.

First no one has ever successfully demonstrated scientifically (that my small mind is aware of) that homosexuality is genomic, that is there is a gene or series of genes that cause homosexuality.

So?

There is good scientific evidence that if a strong male or female figure in a given persons life beats that person, physically or emotionally, for a series of years, that person is very likely to deviate from the norm.

Unless it explains 100% of cases, then other causes must be sought.

That the given person is likely to be severely effected by this trauma to the point that studies have found up to 80% of people who suffer SSA were traumatised.
home60515.com/3.html
It is a psychological thing and not in the realm of biology.

Until you account for the other 20% and show that the 80% have SSA purely because of trauma, your claim is presumptuous.

…If it is your sin then you are getting no help from the culture at large which demands sex any way you want it with no rules no matter who gets hurt. Even if that person is you.

I appreciate our finding common ground.

 

[down_under]

First, I do not know the cause of homosexuality. It could be psychological, biological, neurological, etc.

That is not the case. The mind is part of the body. If the genesis is neurological or somehow physiological, then homosexuality is like biology. If the genesis is psychological and occurs after birth, that is something else.

Unless it explains 100% of cases, then other causes must be sought.

Until you account for the other 20% and show that the 80% have SSA purely because of trauma, your claim is presumptuous.

I appreciate our finding common ground.

okay you don’t know the cause of homosexuality then why are you claiming it is biological. secondly (your second comment) there is a whole lot of ifs there. even granting that no the mind is not Part of the body. that is the difference between psychology and biology. its a cancer that’s biology, if its like schizophrenia that is like psychology and has nothing to do with biology.

Third no there can be many causes of homosexuality that have nothing to do with each other. Looking for the causes of the 20% does not discount that we have already drawn conclusions about what pain is doing to cause 80% of the problem. Nor do I have to account for the 20% to point out that 80% are suffering from serious problems we can in fact do something about.

Here is some more common ground for you.

As he soberly puts it, “there appear to be plenty of failed heterosexual unions in the data,” in which many of the children of mothers who had same-sex relationships “spend their early years with their biological mother and father” before those relationships occur. Regnerus’s findings do not obscure the realities of family and sexuality in our society; they illuminate them

This is the best study done to date and he could not find the heterosexual family counterpart in the homosexual family only 2 cases were found where the family homosexual unit stayed together when the children we adults.
This clearly demonstrates the transitory nature of the relationship.

People who suffer from SSA often change there orientation to become homosexual without ever having had such an inclination before. and vice versa.

lifesitenews.com/news/the-vindication-of-mark-regnerus

and ps I used this article because the work has in fact been vindicated of all the charges the LGBT crowd threw at it. but like I said what is missing from the data is as startling as what his findings were.

Now that you have evidence of homosexuals changing there orientation perhaps you can stop saying you don’t know. I am glad we came to an understanding.

 

[Baelor]

okay you don’t know the cause of homosexuality then why are you claiming it is biological.

If I did, I did not mean to – I consider it a possibility. I do not know the cause.

secondly (your second comment) there is a whole lot of ifs there. even granting that no the mind is not Part of the body.

The brain is, and so in that way the mind is. Neurology is not psychology.

Third no there can be many causes of homosexuality that have nothing to do with each other.

I agree.

Looking for the causes of the 20% does not discount that we have already drawn conclusions about what pain is doing to cause 80% of the problem.

But that pain is not fully understood. Forgive me if I also want to know the process by which something occurs.

Nor do I have to account for the 20% to point out that 80% are suffering from serious problems we can in fact do something about.

I never claimed otherwise.

Now that you have evidence of homosexuals changing there orientation perhaps you can stop saying you don’t know. I am glad we came to an understanding.

I do not know that every gay person can change his orientation. I did not claim that none could.

 

[down_under]

The brain is, and so in that way the mind is. Neurology is not psychology.

I do not know that every gay person can change his orientation. I did not claim that none could.

Neurology in not psychology true but can you tell me even one study in neurology where homosexuality stems from a neurological problem. I know of no view in the field that does. Is there scientific research in this area or is this conjecture?

The second statement is more interesting then the first. It is being wondered if, possibly due to multiple causes, some are completely curable and some cases of homosexuality cannot be cured at all. My understanding is that this second #is thought to be very small but none the less existent. The other side of that coin is that we just have not the proper understanding of human psychology to actually accomplish the task. The distinction being not curable yet. this puts us in a cancer situation, where some are cured, some we try to cure, and the rest we have to admit we just can’t attempt.

This brings us to the 64 million dollar question. Does the fact that we can’t cure what is understood to be a deviation in the mental process, which is dangerous to the person who acts out such impulses, lead us down a road where we say its a normal and good lifestyle?

 

[Baelor]

Neurology in not psychology true but can you tell me even one study in neurology where homosexuality stems from a neurological problem. I know of no view in the field that does. Is there scientific research in this area or is this conjecture?

No, just as there is no study that states with certainty that homosexuality stems from any other problem.

I have said all I wanted to say on this topic. I will no longer be posting here.

 

[down_under]

No, just as there is no study that states with certainty that homosexuality stems from any other problem.

I have said all I wanted to say on this topic. I will no longer be posting here.

strange how when us finding common ground means you giving ground the discussion is over. By the way there are good studies which show the relationship between homosexuality and abuse. Its not even a new finding it has been known for 20 years or more. have a good day.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

It’s unclear whether sexual orientation can be changed. We can’t look at people with same sex attraction as someone who needs to be cured. They need to be loved and accepted as they are. Love and acceptance does not mean that we also condone their sexual activity, but neither do we call it out as worse than some forms of heterosexual activity outside of marriage.

Like all unmarried persons, people with same sex attraction are called to a life of chastity/celibacy. We must NEVER deride or insult them or call them names or judge them.

Jesus only issued one commandment: That we love each other as He loves us.
Jesus only forbad one thing: Judge not, that you shall not be judged.

As Catholics, we’re called to love and be compassionate.

 

[down_under]

It’s unclear whether sexual orientation can be changed. We can’t look at people with same sex attraction as someone who needs to be cured. They need to be loved and accepted as they are. Love and acceptance does not mean that we also condone their sexual activity, but neither do we call it out as worse than some forms of heterosexual activity outside of marriage.

Like all unmarried persons, people with same sex attraction are called to a life of chastity/celibacy. We must NEVER deride or insult them or call them names or judge them.

Jesus only issued one commandment: That we love each other as He loves us.
Jesus only forbad one thing: Judge not, that you shall not be judged.

As Catholics, we’re called to love and be compassionate.

I can agree with you that we are called to be compassionate and that these sins are on the same level as fornication. But I am not sure this whole accept them as they are business. Particularly when they are busy revelling in there “lifestyle” while asking me for compassion. 2 people living in sin is two people living in sin regardless who they are. Now those such as the poster above who is clearly trying to live a chaste life this statement applies he is trying to be holy like the rest of us. carrying his crosses as he goes. All to often though the cry for compassion and except us as we are, is largely about that person not becoming holy and simply not caring. It like a political talking head telling us how good they are when the whole time they own a chain of abortion facilities.

To those like me are trying to live good lives doing as good as we can, hats off to you. God bless you I hope everything is going well and continues to as you grow in Gods love. To those who want a “modern” church, go start your own and leave ours alone.