Which Homosexuals Are "Incurable"?

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Those who charge that never seem to mention the constant attack on culture by those who want to dismantle marriage, the family, and impose their ideology like a cudgel. Instead of answering the moral arguments they try and impose an emotionalism disguised with bible quotes so as to avoid the tough arguments by claiming lack of charity.
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As for this, I don’t think that’s true. At least it’s not in my case. I absolutely understand that the culture is “under attack.” Or, more accurately, there are people trying to change the culture into something I don’t want it to be. It’s not that the culture is being besieged, it’s that it is being changed into something that is against the Church’s teaching. I don’t think you can ever really “attack” the culture, but maybe that’s semantics.

At any rate, I’m fully aware of that. And I’m fully aware that the other side uses unfair tactics and bullying. To that I say, well, what else do you expect? Evil does not fight fair. Satan does not enter through the front door, but sneaks in from behind. The devil does not present sin as something that is ugly but as something that is appealing. If sin were not attractive, we would not do anything wrong.

God, however, does not resort to the tricks of the evil one. Christ gave us his example. We are to be meek and humble of heart. We are to live out our lives peacefully and untroubled. This does not mean that we don’t March for Life or marriage. But it does mean we do so without anger in our hearts. That we do it all with compassion chief in our minds.

The voice of God did not come in the tempest but as a quiet whisper that pierces the soul.
 
CopticChristian said:
Epan,

You may want to look into what is called “reframing”…you can study this and one expert in the field is Robert Dilts. He wrote on this and explains how we conversationaly reframe. Accusation?

I took your statement, that you said, having reviewed the reasonable people that dismiss me…you chose not to dismiss me…what is it you conclude other than accusation.

Either dismiss me or don’t.
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Give is it a rest, Coptic.
 
CopticChristian said:
Epan,

You may want to look into what is called “reframing”…you can study this and one expert in the field is Robert Dilts. He wrote on this and explains how we conversationaly reframe. Accusation?

I took your statement, that you said, having reviewed the reasonable people that dismiss me…you chose not to dismiss me…what is it you conclude other than accusation.

Either dismiss me or don’t.
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Give is it a rest, Coptic. Your stridency gains you nothing.
 
epan said:
Give is it a rest, Coptic.
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Epan,

recall that I achieved Commander in the US navy…I would imagine I outrank you.,…so I ask you to be respectful, cease and desist and go about your business soldier…
 
The_Bucket said:
Right, exactly! That’s my point. I’m not with epan in terms of “get with the program Catholic Church and change.” Universal truth is unchangeable. What is good and what is evil has never changed because God is unchangeable.

Homosexual acts are not right today because everyone says they are right. And they were not wrong because 50 years ago because everyone said it was wrong. They’re wrong because of God’s design for humanity, plain and simple.

But just because we have universal Truth on our side does not give us the right to shove other people’s faces into it. And it’s an idiotic plan to do that anyway because people are usually pretty darn resistant to being coerced or threatened or degraded into believing something.

By all means let’s preach the Gospel. By all means let’s not sugar-coat the fact that homosexual acts are wrong. And let’s not forget that, guess what, so is contraception, sex before marriage, excess greed, selfishness, anger and a whole host of other things. It’s even wrong to be excessively angry at people who throw the accusations of bigotry at the Church! Christ turned his other cheek when insulted. He never stopped speaking the Truth and yet when confronted by the authorities of his day, he was meek. It took contrived outrage on the part of the high priests to have Him sent to Pilate.

Where is our meekness? Where is our humility? Since when is following Christ’s example of gentleness and humility a failure to stand up for what is right?

Trust me, I’ve been as fire and brimstone as anyone over the course of my life. I loved to pass judgment on people and castigate others for their sins and refuse to associate with certain people because we held polar opposite beliefs in terms of religiosity and politics. But where was the mirror in front of me? It did not exist! I was so busy slamming other people, even if it was in my own mind, that I ignored the sin in my own life. I was blocking it out and not recognizing that my own sin was preventing me from bringing the Gospel to anyone. I finally had the mirror turned back around on me over the last year and it’s brought with it fresh perspective on how to reach out to others and spread the Gospel to all people.
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The real question for me is what is the ultimate goal and how can we best achieve it? According to Jesus, our job is to follow Him and lead others to Him. And that naturally leads to the next question…how are we doing? Are we drawing people towards Jesus or are we pushing them away? Is our anger at other people’s sin bringing us closer to Jesus?
 
RMCarlson said:
Why are you so focused on genitalia? You are really out of touch. You’ve completely missed the point- “bodily realities” have nothing to do with “inclinations.” He never said anything about a ‘homosexual body type.’ Science is actually not on your side. I know that any quotes I give you will be disputed with “I just cannot discuss this with you…”

Here is something you can’t dispute: the topic of homosexuality is ripping our church apart. Abusive priests, scandal, cover-ups, etc. People who have been Catholics for generations are leaving the church because of intolerance and double standards. We are never going to make converts and bring people to Jesus if we are subtly yet firmly suggesting that they are either not “upstanding” or we ourselves are in a position to judge the state of a human being’s soul. That’s God’s turf- not yours or mine.

Here’s where we should start- by validating the human being- not the behavior- but the human being. You completely dismiss the human being when you suggest they weren’t “upstanding” people before they* allegedly* switched orientation. You imply that a human cannot be “upstanding” until they are actively heterosexual- dismissing everyone else. Hearing Catholics like you denigrate other human beings makes me fear for the future of our church.
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People have left our church because we were not being fed. They lost trust over some of the priests they felt were hypocritical. How many young teenage boys have been molested and that experience helped them think they were homosexuals themselves because they were told that they loved them? There are more out there that have been silent.

Now we see what has been going on in the last 50 years. Have you seen what the wolves have been doing inside our church? We have a homosexual mafia that has been undermining everything in it. I think it says something when you have a Cardinal stepping down because he was blackmailing priests he had sex with. More is going to come out. How upstanding are all these men that have been hiding out pushing this agenda? It has been all about sex from the beginning. My spouse spoke with a priest at a private function a couple years ago, and he said when he was in the seminary 25- 30 years ago, it was rampant with homosexuals. That is what has been destroying our church. We don’t need a lot of people to bring our church back. But we do need faithful people. We aren’t here to be politically correct. Worrying all the time about feelings when the souls are at risk at going to hell. My goodness we are in the end times and it’s going to get ugly. If people don’t start learning their faith fast, the gates of hell are going to get wider. I for one don’t want to go there and I have to make sure my salvation is in check first. It took a crisis for me to get back to church and once I got there and had Jesus put a fire under me and learned what the faith really teaches, I never looked back. Happier than ever in my life, not that I am not going through trials and tribulations, but I have Jesus at my side. What saddens me is how much I love my church and I see the wolves trying to destroy her, but I will fight to the death for her and my family if that is what it takes. Heaven will be worth it.
GB
 
CopticChristian said:
Epan,

recall that I achieved Commander in the US navy…I would imagine I outrank you.,…so I ask you to be respectful, cease and desist and go about your business soldier…
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You must be kidding. If you look at my profile, you will see that you don’t outrank me. At my next promotion will you then be quiet, permanently? What is your point? You seem to be getting silly.

Is this what psychiatrists call “decompensation”?

I now suspect that your entire profile is a fraud. (1) You don’t understand rank designations in the US Navy, yet you claim to be a former 0-5. You are clearly not a US Navy Commander. I am, however. (2) You call me a “soldier” when I have pointed out that I am a former Marine, and now a US Navy officer. Neither of those would designate me as a soldier. No former naval officer would make that mistake. It just would not happen.

Are you real or just a fake profile with a fascination with homosexuality?
 
CopticChristian said:
Epan,

recall that I achieved Commander in the US navy…I would imagine I outrank you.,…so I ask you to be respectful, cease and desist and go about your business soldier…
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Further, no US Navy commander would ever type the word, “navy” in reference to his branch of service. I strongly suspect that you are a fraud. That you “imagine” your rank (using your own words) seems clear.
 
Deo_Volente said:
Grace & Peace!

Speak, who in this thread is saying it’s okay to have sex with someone of the same sex? I’ve not said such a thing. I may have said something very much like it in some thread from many many years ago, from before I started studying the catechism more closely, but I can’t recall saying anything analogous recently. So please be specific.

Now, I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but having seen a fair number of these threads, what I’m about to say represents observations of general patterns.

What some folks have been trying to maintain is the real distinction between act and attraction. Some of these folks are celibate homosexuals who do not take kindly to others assuming things about their behavior for which there is no evidence. Some of these same celibate homosexuals reject the idea of conversion therapy either based on their own experience of it (i.e., it represented a painful failure), or because they do not see it as necessary (in much the same way that the catechism doesn’t deem it necessary–if it did, it would say, “Get into some conversion therapy program!”). When their brothers and sisters in the faith start pushing reparative therapy on them, or start pushing an understanding of homosexuality which is concerned only with sexual behavior or politics as opposed to it just being a fundamental attraction to someone of the same sex (which need not necessarily be expressed in some sexual act or another), then they get upset.

They get upset because they perceive that part of who they are is being egregiously (and apparently willfully) misunderstood by their faith family.

They get upset because it seems clearer and clearer to them that their faith family doesn’t really count their experience of their own lives as anything worth considering and would prefer to think of homosexuality as an abstract sin-construct as opposed to a sexual orientation that really informs the lives of real people trying to live their lives honestly and faithfully.

They get upset because it seems like their faith family would prefer them to be something very specific on account of their sexuality (usually miserable or conforming to an ideal of heroic suffering if they can’t “change”), but they’ve come to experience their sexuality in very different terms–not as an easy thing, all things considered, but not as a curse either.

They get upset because whenever they would like their faith family to moderate their rhetoric long enough to actually listen to or understand them, their faith family seems to reject the attempt at understanding as being soft on sin, too permissive, or an attempt to change church teaching–which upsets these folks even more, because they’re committed to celibacy and aren’t trying to change church teaching!

In the end, they get upset because their faith family seems really invested in not paying attention to what they have to say.

And all of that upsetness is angering. And all-too-often that anger becomes depression because it’s internalized: they feel helpless, swallowed up by wave after wave of pious well-meaning that, in their experience, would rather drown and crush them than address their thirst for honest communion with their faith family.

So for what it’s worth, that’s what I see as happening in so may of these threads. There aren’t two sides here: the pro homosexual sex side and the anti homosexual sex sides. There are a lot of perspectives, a lot of different experiences, a lot of nuance that can be easily overlooked or misunderstood if we’re not too careful

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
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Mark
I don’t think of it as anyone should think that the person thinks they are better because they are trying to be convincing to a crowd that sounds pro homosexual and really loves there faith. In my situation having a son with this along with Aspergers symptoms clouding the issues for him, I feel more compassion that I did before. I admit it I was not nice about it. I thought of them as those people. I wasn’t back to church then and didn’t see my own sins. Now I see a human face and it has humbled me especially after coming back to church. At the same token, I justifiable get angry when I see people who make this no big deal that helps keeps my son agreeable to a life that people are now accepting as normal.
I see a lot behind the scenes that I couldn’t possibly write it all. Especially seeing the corruption inside my church. It’s frustrating and coming on here I notice a lot of people that are just angry for many reasons and want to take it out on people and the church and are purposely trying to undermine the faith. That is my observation, maybe I am misreading, making assumptions, but I see it on all the threads that have to do with homosexuality. People trying to push people away from the church or trying to change it. Jesus was humble and meek, but he talked very clearly about hell and he showed his justified anger in the temple. So why didn’t he just sit down and talk them before he did that? Sometimes it is hard to convince people when there hearts are so hardened. I believe Pride enters into it. A thing we all have to be aware of. Sometimes you have to shake things up to get peoples attention and we can’t be worried if we are liked or accepted by the world, we have to do what is right. Charity is wanting the best for that person and wanting them to go to heaven. It is not fuzzy and sweet.
Depending on the situation or person we have to discern what is the best way. Sometimes we can be more gentle and sometimes it’s called tough love. Love and truth. It is a constant battle to try different avenues to get people to Jesus. We are fighting a war, but with the things we cannot see. The devil, and he is roaring like Lion ready to devour…
GB
 
speakttruth said:
Glad to see you back, but you seem very angry.🤷
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Amused might be a better word. I am committed to calling out those who speak untruthfully, in my opinion. That is more indignation, than it is anger.

I was accused of being contemptuous of Catholic Clergy, for pointing out there there has been a severe public relations problem for the Church, which has plagued the current leadership. That is a perfect example of ideological bullying on CAF. Someone who made the opposite point, would be considered laudable (though either mistaken or untruthful).

I am angry at Coptic, as his last postings have exposed himself as a fraud, in my opinion. I have lost body parts in service to the US. Literally. He has posed himself as a US Navy officer, when he clearly is not. That does make me angry.
 
epan said:
You must be kidding. If you look at my profile, you will see that you don’t outrank me. At my next promotion will you then be quiet, permanently? What is your point? You seem to be getting silly.

Is this what psychiatrists call “decompensation”?

I now suspect that your entire profile is a fraud. (1) You don’t understand rank designations in the US Navy, yet you claim to be a former 0-5. You are clearly not a US Navy Commander. I am, however. (2) You call me a “soldier” when I have pointed out that I am a former Marine, and now a US Navy officer. Neither of those would designate me as a soldier. No former naval officer would make that mistake. It just would not happen.

Are you real or just a fake profile with a fascination with homosexuality?
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Epan,

Having checked your profile I see you are 0-5/commander of Lt. Colonel. Well Ok then. Sailor then. Never looked at your profile.
A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity. Proverbs 17:17
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He who pursues righteousness and love finds life, prosperity and honor. Proverbs 21:21
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What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:26
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good quotes…I see you managed to include me in your profile:thumbsup:
 
epan said:
Amused might be a better word. I am committed to calling out those who speak untruthfully, in my opinion. That is more indignation, than it is anger.

I was accused of being contemptuous of Catholic Clergy, for pointing out there there has been a severe public relations problem for the Church, which has plagued the current leadership. That is a perfect example of ideological bullying on CAF. Someone who made the opposite point, would be considered laudable (though either mistaken or untruthful).

I am angry at Coptic, as his last postings have exposed himself as a fraud, in my opinion. I have lost body parts in service to the US. Literally. He has posed himself as a US Navy officer, when he clearly is not. That does make me angry.
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Well it’s obvious your angry at Coptic, Just be careful how you may be interpreting things. You harped on him right away and told him basically to take a hike. My observation. It seems your angry from your suspension as well, but you managed to convince someone to let you back on, thats good. I got an infraction once. I was new.
Epan, this topic of homosexuality is a hot button. We only get bits and pieces of each other, and it’s hard to really know anyone on here sitting behind a computer. It is easy for some people to internalize comments as personally attacking. If we are all truly trying to live our faith we are all in this together. The devil likes us to split up and attack each other. Now that you revealed this about yourself, I have a different image in my mind, so we don’t really know how to see each other because we are not face to face.
I thank you for your service and sacrifice.
God bless
 
I thought this might be a good reminder for all of us.
GB

Thus says the LORD:
Cursed is the man who trusts in human beings,
who seeks his strength in flesh,
whose heart turns away from the LORD.
He is like a barren bush in the desert
that enjoys no change of season,
But stands in a lava waste,
a salt and empty earth.
Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD,
whose hope is the LORD.
He is like a tree planted beside the waters
that stretches out its roots to the stream:
It fears not the heat when it comes,
its leaves stay green;
In the year of drought it shows no distress,
but still bears fruit.
More tortuous than all else is the human heart,
beyond remedy; who can understand it?
I, the LORD, alone probe the mind
and test the heart,
To reward everyone according to his ways,
according to the merit of his deeds.
 
speakttruth said:
Well it’s obvious your angry at Coptic, Just be careful how you may be interpreting things. You harped on him right away and told him basically to take a hike. My observation. It seems your angry from your suspension as well, but you managed to convince someone to let you back on, thats good. I got an infraction once. I was new.
Epan, this topic of homosexuality is a hot button. We only get bits and pieces of each other, and it’s hard to really know anyone on here sitting behind a computer. It is easy for some people to internalize comments as personally attacking. If we are all truly trying to live our faith we are all in this together. The devil likes us to split up and attack each other. Now that you revealed this about yourself, I have a different image in my mind, so we don’t really know how to see each other because we are not face to face.
I thank you for your service and sacrifice.
God bless
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It’s all good. I didn’t convince anyone of anything. Coptic was obviously never a commander in the US Navy. I wonder why he claims to have been.

Based on some of his comments regarding medicine, I have suspected his claim to be a physician to be false, as well.

I believe that he is a fraud.
 
CopticChristian said:
Epan,

Having checked your profile I see you are 0-5/commander of Lt. Colonel. Well Ok then. Sailor then. Never looked at your profile.

good quotes…I see you managed to include me in your profile:thumbsup:
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If we pursue your logic, then if your imagined rank is less than mine, then you are required to be quiet. Is that correct?
 
epan said:
It’s all good. I didn’t convince anyone of anything. Coptic was obviously never a commander in the US Navy. I wonder why he claims to have been.

Based on some of his comments regarding medicine, I have suspected his claim to be a physician to be false, as well.

I believe that he is a fraud.
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Epan,

Ok, let’s try this…

are enlisted women allowed to have relationships with officers?

Are tatoos frowned on in officers?

Can you moonlight without permission from your commanding officer?

Does the Navy and Marines salute with or without hat/cover?

What do bilateral lesions in the Amygdala have in common with violations of the 6th commandment?
 
epan said:
If we pursue your logic, then if your imagined rank is less than mine, then you are required to be quiet. Is that correct?
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Epan,

Imagined reality is ever as real as reality. Milton Ericskon, M.D. says so…
 
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