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Kaninchen
Guest
As I said, ignore lists.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Why? Conservative Europeans (i.e. liberals) don’t apologize to Americans? Is it a matter of principle or something?
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Athanasiy
Guest
I posted the article in order to renew the discussion on this thread and not in order to support the particular form of capitalism.
I personally have much more sympathy to the West European model of capitalism , because the economics in the West Europe - its when the people have meaning .
There is much Catholicism in the socio - economics of the West European countries.
But the alarming problem of Europe is that the Europe is forsake the Church , the Europe is forsaking the family , so if these institutions are falling down , the money making people do not know what they should pursue , what should be their values , how they should behave with those money.
In my opinion , may be the economic activity has a soul because it takes care for the people , but the peoples values are loosing the soul.
I personally see the big problem with unregulated capitalism ,
I watch the news these days in Ukraine , the same as in many other countries , thousands of people are loosing their jobs .
Of course for many of them the former jobs wasn’t a subsistence minimum , but after dismissing the people from the factories and leaving them unemployed , without any income
– who is to blame ? who is guilty ?
I am sure that the oligarchs who buy and sell or close up the factories , they do not feel the responsibility to think about thousands of unemployed people , and unfortunately do not have the opportunities to see , why there are the scandals or fighting in those families , or how those people can survive and support themselves without job.
I think the oligarchs who even before did not care about the social effects , about the condition of life of the workers and their salaries , they just have a good excuse – ‘’ the economic crisis is guilty’’ , they say .
And who can blame them ? are they not right ?
I personally have much more sympathy to the West European model of capitalism , because the economics in the West Europe - its when the people have meaning .
There is much Catholicism in the socio - economics of the West European countries.
But the alarming problem of Europe is that the Europe is forsake the Church , the Europe is forsaking the family , so if these institutions are falling down , the money making people do not know what they should pursue , what should be their values , how they should behave with those money.
In my opinion , may be the economic activity has a soul because it takes care for the people , but the peoples values are loosing the soul.
I personally see the big problem with unregulated capitalism ,
I watch the news these days in Ukraine , the same as in many other countries , thousands of people are loosing their jobs .
Of course for many of them the former jobs wasn’t a subsistence minimum , but after dismissing the people from the factories and leaving them unemployed , without any income
– who is to blame ? who is guilty ?
I am sure that the oligarchs who buy and sell or close up the factories , they do not feel the responsibility to think about thousands of unemployed people , and unfortunately do not have the opportunities to see , why there are the scandals or fighting in those families , or how those people can survive and support themselves without job.
I think the oligarchs who even before did not care about the social effects , about the condition of life of the workers and their salaries , they just have a good excuse – ‘’ the economic crisis is guilty’’ , they say .
And who can blame them ? are they not right ?
- ‘’ the economic crisis is guilty’’ !
But when you see how speedily the statistics of crimes is going up , and those street strikes and demonstrations by the thousands of people ,
you just don’t know what to think .
The oligarch , are worry about the concurrence , he is under the pressure to increase the profit and not to worry about the people , the people are just - the instrument .
That’s the climate of corporative behavior , that’s the moral climate of capitalism.
I am far from being expert in economics , but I think that unhealthy capitalism it’s a serious problem , and it can bring very bad consequences for the life of individuals and societies.
And its not surprised that today the communist parties are going up with popularity , and even winning the elections in some ex- communists countries.
The people are disappointed , because they remember the capable of living economic prosperity for all individuals in the times of the communism , and they can compare with today’s life.
I personally believe that the communism , even by its prosperity times – historically proved itself as not human system.
But this type of the cruel , the heartless , the cannibalistic capitalism , which we have in the country today , I would say , - in majority of the world today - is also not human system .
Because today , beside all , you must think twice before to bring your money to the bank , you must think twice before to invest the money to the financial project which in reality can be the financial pyramid .
You must think twice before to buy the food , and to check where it come from , the date of issue and expiry, the same with the other staff as industrial output , the medicaments , the charlatan medicine , the other production industries.
Choosing the products for your life needs , you are forced to discern the wholesome and serviceable from the fake and poisonous , because those who offer to you the fake stuff – they do not care about you , they care how to survive themselves in the corrupted influence of the profit by any means .
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grampben
Guest
Calm down.Kaninchen;
Yeah, at the expense of a comment that I had made which was taken out of context! SO KNOCK IT OFF!
Both myself and Kaninchen have been ridiculed far too many times on this forum because of where we come from. We HAVE been told that Europe is so socialist that even the conservatives are ‘left wing’.
Noone ever apologised for that.
It’s sad to see people not even being able to understand some good old British sarcasm… it wasn’t even directed as an insult towards a single person in particular, so why don’t you back off?
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Kaninchen
Guest
As I said, ignore lists.Why? Conservative Europeans (i.e. liberals) don’t apologize to Americans? Is it a matter of principle or something?
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neat62
Guest
grampben;
That was not an indirect, condascending insult, that is how some of us see considering that we do not live where you do. You could try to “educate” us in a nicer manner than trying to sound arrogant and condascending, telling us that we don’t understand word and definitions. And you expect us to calm down?!
She used the EXACT same words that I said, only out of context. If you can’t handle that, then take your friends advice and ignore us “stupid” Americans.
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neat62
Guest
Good Have at it. Don’t let me stop you.
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neat62
Guest
WOW! A lot of one sided, blame the big guys stuff in there. Keep in mind that people will vote for the same ideology that enabled this mess to happen in the first place. Having the government force financial institutions to lend money to unqualified people. Or scamming Fannie May out of 90 million dollars by overstating their earnings. Or even by the so called regulators who said all these institutions were fine and in no danger, only to have them collapse. Yeah, those Lib Dems who were supposedly looking out for the little guy, actually ended up hurting more than they helped.
And those little guys who bit off more than they could chew or were too stupid to understand the terms of the loan. They are just as much to blame for this mess as anyone. After all, it was their loans that failed.
The main thing here is not to overreact on both sides. Don’t jump to the Communists and don’t turn your backs on the institutions that enabled at least 25 years of prosperity either. Soak it up, make your way, and ride it out, but knee jerk actions will hurt us bad either way.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Not sure what you mean by that…are you saying ignoring someone is equivalent to saying you are sorry? Or, are you recommending I ignore you for some reason? If the latter, why? You’ve done nothing to offend me, and I find your posts entertaining, even though I find the Europe v American debate tiresome (from both sides).
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grampben
Guest
It wasn’t even Europe v America, it was a joke directed towards me.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
Understood…I was speaking of the general debate in this thread (and others) that devolves into a “Europeans are all liberal socialists” and “American conservatives are all ignorant jerks” conversation. That is what gets tiresome.
I’m a conservative (by some definitions, apparently
) American who has traveled to Europe quite a bit and lived in the UK for 6 months (yes, I know that is brief). The diversity of opinions politically is just as alive-and-well as it is in the US.
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Kaninchen
Guest
To me, it’s all really been about definitions and who controls definitions - is there a real history to it all or is it to be a kind of stream of consciousness matter towards a kind of ‘Newspeak’/‘Newhistory’ political end. It’s Europe v America in the sense that we Europeans experienced all this directly - our world is very much a product of these struggles and many of us played roles within them.
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Kaninchen
Guest
No, the ignore list helps one not get involved in ‘discussions’ which end up with moderators awarding penalty points - as has happened before in the case of a particular poster in this discussion and myself.
I was indicating that, from my point of view, it was ‘end of conversation’.
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
The reason I feel this distinction is fairly meaningless, is that the struggles that we have in America between the extremes of Capitalism and Communism (or Socialism) are separate from the struggles and history that you have in Europe. We can both have variations in our definitions that work in our particular struggles. The trouble occurs when either side tries to judge the other using their varied definitions.
Now, in a general sense, I think most people agree that both extremes Capitalism and Communism are not good systems. We need some controls. I happen to favor the Church’s view in regards to subsidiarity. Part of the reason for the differences between Europe and the US is probably due to size. I think a state in the US choosing to emulate Sweden (or whatever European “ideal” people wish to emulate) may very well work. However, I don’t think the US federal government should do it.
Just my 2 cents (Euro or American
)
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grampben
Guest
How jovial while the poor old pound falls and fallsJust my 2 cents (Euro or American
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Kaninchen
Guest
That’s ok as long as there’s no conversation between ‘us’ then and we never comment on one another’s politics. Then ‘a communist’ can be ‘somebody once seen reading the NY Times’ for Americans and ‘somebody committed to the final stage of Marxist development’ to Europeans without there being any conflict. I only get involved when American posters start talking about European circumstances using American definitions.
Well, of course, the population of the US is significantly smaller than that of the EU but some American states are almost as populous as major European countries.Just my 2 cents (Euro or American
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Kaninchen
Guest
Should have joined the Euro!How jovial while the poor old pound falls and falls
(betraying my non-Brit background there!)
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grampben
Guest
I used to think that, but at least we have greater control of our currency levels in a way because it is set in London, with the Euro however this all goes to Frankfurt.
I dunno, maybe it would be good to join up
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RobertLGarrett
Guest
I confess to not knowing much about the EU’s structure from an economic/political standpoint. Does the EU governing body exert the same amount of control and influence as the US federal government does on the states? I guess I picture it as only providing some loose guidelines, money (for those that participate in that part) and border/immigration changes.Well, of course, the population of** the US is significantly smaller than that of the EU** but some American states are almost as populous as major European countries.
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grampben
Guest
The USA is a country based on the federal system yeah?
The EU is not a country. More a gentlemens club (
)However there are certain guidelines each country must follow.
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