Which is more effective: Prayer or Action?

[GreggAlvarez]

It does not matter of course to me if a person wants to pray, I don’t in anyway get hurted by that. There is even some people who say ill pray for you and I accept it as a good intention, unless we are in some sort of debate then it would be a rude thing to say.

Ahh… I understand. But what I meant was, would it matter in terms of the discussion? That is, would the order we choose (work first or prayer first) matter in this discussion?

In most cases I say s/he to not confuse

Clever girl.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

True. When did I say “every pronouncement requires statistical evidence”? I forgot.

You alluded to that statement by asking for statistical evidence on whether a person would be willing to work at something than pray about it. This is nonetheless true ipso facto, by virtue of the fact that no one gets anywhere by sitting down and praying. What CEO, doctor, musician, et al. got into the position they are in by solely praying? What scientific achievement has been made through prayer? If you “put your money where your mouth is”, to use the idiom, you would pray for a long life expectancy rather than go to a doctor. After all, by visiting a doctor, are you not showing a lack of faith in God’s divine providence?

Anyway, to incorporate a little reason into our scuffle… When I said “Even if what you posit…”, that was pending any evidence you might have had to substantiate your claim to which I responded. I am still waiting on that.

You just said not every pronouncement requires statistical evidence. Now a sudden change of mind. . .again?

You see, I respect flyingg. He is willing to actually read my posts and respond adequately. But all you know is that atheistic derision because atheists are far more superior in intellectual potency than Christians. Hardly the case here. Atheists class most Christians in the irrational and unreasonable side, but as a good friend (atheist) of mine put it: “Stupidity comes in all religions and non-religions, atheists are most definitely included.”

You aren’t asking for a fair debate. What you are asking for is the person you are discussing with to agree with what you believe in. Anyone who disagrees with your point of view is somehow conjuring up an “unfair” debate, or has a conspiratorial bias or is using “atheistic logic” (never knew logic took sides).

The humor here lies where the atheist should succeed the most: rationality. Nietzche succeeded. Why are you having so much trouble just being objective?

If Nietzsche succeeded in being rational, it begs the question of why you aren’t following Nietzsche. This question implicitly reveals the real person who is being irrational.

That’s all I want. An objective and fair discussion. Is that too much to ask?

Be honest with yourself. You aren’t asking for a fair discussion. You are asking for a “discussion” rigged in your favour, a “discussion” where we agree on assertions that are unsubstantiated and without proof. There are people in this world who are after the truth, and there are other people in this world who will cover their ears upon anything that slightly disagrees with their worldview. Marx regarded religion as the “opium of the people”, and I think no other quote is more indicative of your position.

Anyway, to respond to this last section, are we still talking about tests? Things ultimately inconsequential in the greater world? Or do we want to talk about things that ultimately matter?

So you believe exams are unimportant? That tests don’t determine what university/college you attend? That tests don’t indirectly determine what income you earn in the long-run? That test scores don’t give an impression on those who ask you? Really?

Of course, they would be unimportant to someone who spends all of their time in prayer. For those who want to work, for those who want to build a hope and a future for themselves, exams are important.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Also, would it matter which one came first? That is an honest question. Christians may call the ambulance first, but they will still pray. Prayers are not meant to “effective”. They are meant for our souls. And then we get into “God exists! No He doesn’t! Yes He does!” from there.

Thank you for admitting that prayers are not effective .

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Prayer needs to precede and inform our action. It’s not either/or.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings to those posting and or reading this thread,

When I listened to yesterday’s homily there were two lines that struck me. And the more that I think the more entranced I am by them. As they have much to do with this thread, I submit them to you. Let these words speak for themselves, I cannot add anything to them.

May the King of Kings find us engaging in what one saint has described as the most effective apostolate of all…the apostolate of faith-filled prayer. And let us not forget that prayer is not only an expression of love…it is also a participation in it.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Friday_child]

Im another both believer (sorry).

Prayer is sometimes needed to give one the courage to complete the action. This works vice versa though, action is needed to pray

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Im another both believer (sorry).

Prayer is sometimes needed to give one the courage to complete the action. This works vice versa though, action is needed to pray

Hello Friday Child,

So prayer is only “effective”, psychologically speaking? In other words, it can’t alter material reality?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Thank you for admitting that prayers are not effective .

I did no such thing.

You see, this is what I’m talking about. I never said or even implied such a thing. Many unreasonable people like to change the words of others around to make it easier to argue and/or deride (in your case, the latter). Sound familiar?

“Prayers are not meant to be effective” and “Prayers are not effective” are two substantially different statements. Do I really need to expound more on this obvious (or at least should be) fact?

“Knives are not meant to be used to slit people’s throats.” According to your response here, you would think “Knives are not used slit people’s throats”.

And I will take that as a “no” to my plea for you to be objective. In which case, I will no longer respond to your posts, even that means biting my tongue to shed some light on your irrationality. That is, unless you change your mind and wish to have an objective and fruitful discussion. Yes?

And how in the world do you get this:

So prayer is only “effective”, psychologically speaking? In other words, it can’t alter material reality?

From:

Prayer is sometimes needed to give one the courage to complete the action. This works vice versa though, action is needed to pray

How do you get “only” from “sometimes”?

That is just one of the many intellectual blunders you have posted.

But, I will stop responding to your posts here, unless you are willing to incorporate fairness and rationality.

 

[You]

Thank you for admitting that prayers are not effective .

Don’t your poll results answer your question?

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Don’t your poll results answer your question?

Oh no, I was just interested in the opinions of CAF users, that’s all. This certainly wasn’t meant to be a “scientific” poll. In fact, it couldn’t be, as the sample is largely homogeneous (almost all practicing Catholics) and not reflective of the general population.

 

[You]

Oh no, I was just interested in the opinions of CAF users, that’s all. This certainly wasn’t meant to be a “scientific” poll. In fact, it couldn’t be, as the sample is largely homogeneous (almost all practicing Catholics) and not reflective of the general population.

You don’t think Catholics know if their prayers are effective?

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

You don’t think Catholics know if their prayers are effective?

• I said that the sample consists of almost all practicing Catholics. There are of course, Jews, Agnostics, and so forth, among us, but the ratio is nowhere near what can be considered as bearing similarity to reality.
• Even some of the Catholics that answered this poll had to concede by concluding that action is important as well. An unbeliever has no need to pray, yet can still achieve his/her objective(s) whilst a believer has to pray and work. The unbeliever is certainly in what would be called in some circles as the optimal position.
• Not every Catholic believes that prayer is effective. We’ve already had one user who seemed to suggest that they were not supposed to be.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[You]

… An unbeliever has no need to pray, yet can still achieve his/her objective(s) whilst a believer has to pray and work. The unbeliever is certainly in what would be called in some circles as the optimal position.

…
Hopefully this helps.

He may not be in an optimal position if his objective is to get to heaven, which ultimately, is what prayer is all about. A believer must pray and work to achieve that objective.

 

[jmcrae]

This is mutually exclusive, because for every moment you spend praying, you spend less time working; and for every moment you spend working, you spend less time praying.

It’s not like they’re mutually exclusive. It is perfectly possible to pray while working.

It’s also possible to pray during breaks - no one works all the time. You have to stop to eat and sleep - you can also stop to pray from time to time. But I think it may have been Fulton Sheen (a very successful man) who said, if you are too busy to pray for an hour, then you had better pray for two hours.

 

[Julia_Mae]

. The unbeliever is certainly in what would be called in some circles as the optimal position…

Those circles must be in Hell. Work is an enormous blessing. Prayer is saving Grace. Unbelievers are in the least enviable position.

 

[Flyingg]

Those circles must be in Hell. Work is an enormous blessing. Prayer is saving Grace. Unbelievers are in the least enviable position.

Do you mean that a person who prays can be saved more than a person who doesn’t pray?
Why? Why is prayer necessary for salvation? Does “God” want us to worship him all the time? Does God needs us to pay that much attention to him? If not, why then prayer is important for salvation? Unless of course it’s not.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Do you mean that a person who prays can be saved more than a person who doesn’t pray?
Why? Why is prayer necessary for salvation? Does “God” want us to worship him all the time? Does God needs us to pay that much attention to him? If not, why then prayer is important for salvation? Unless of course it’s not.

What’s even to say that there is a Hell at all? After all, no one is known to have come back from Hades (cf. Wisdom 2:1).

 

[Julia_Mae]

Do you mean that a person who prays can be saved more than a person who doesn’t pray? .

What do you mean by “saved?”

 

[Flyingg]

What do you mean by “saved?”

You said prayer is a “saving grace” so saved from what?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Do you mean that a person who prays can be saved more than a person who doesn’t pray?

Not necessarily… While that may happen, that is probably not the case all the time. A person who prays yet still rapes, kills, etc… is still held accountable for his sins. A person who does not pray yet makes every effort he/she can to provide for the needy (or other various causes) may still be saved (pending other reasons also).

Why?

I think I answered that one above. Let me know if I didn’t.

Why is prayer necessary for salvation?

I believe my answer makes this not applicable.

Note: I am not saying prayer is unnecessary for salvation. (I say this to avoid any deliberate falsifications of my position as one member on this thread has done several times even after major corrections.)

Does “God” want us to worship him all the time?

I don’t know the answer this question.

Does God needs us to pay that much attention to him?

Need? No.

But when you love somebody, what do you do? Do you “pay attention” to them all the time? No. Do you have them in the back of your minds? No.

While I don’t know of my answer to my own question, i know that I always love them and I never forget about them, even if I may be doing something else.

So, its not a matter of “paying attention” to God at all times. Its a matter of loving Him.

And if you are the person to whom that love is directed, that is what you would want. If your parent, child, sibling, significant other, etc… would tell you that he/she loved you, you would want that love to be acted out (for my lack of better words) rather than just being said. Not for them to prove it, but for them to actually love you.

Does that makes sense? Probably not… I think I got off topic.

If not, why then prayer is important for salvation? Unless of course it’s not.

Ahh… Indeed it is important for salvation because in Christian life, it is all about a relationship. That relationship is dependent on prayer and obedience to the command that we pray (among other things).

This is why we believe we are saved by faith and good works. Protestants who disagree actually practice faith and wors. Haha…

But it would be a strange for a Christian to believe in Christ as his Lord and Savior, yet not pray.

I know that prayer is important, but I am at a loss to explain further about the necessity of prayer. Of course, if a person believes and wishes to obey Christ, they MUST pray (or otherwise be disobedient to the One in which he/she believes). But as far as unbelievers and their POSSIBLE salvation and the necessity of prayer there, I don’t know.