Which is more effective: Prayer or Action?

[Charlemagne_II]

I don’t see how it is possible to love God without talking to Him.

I don’t see how it is possible to love God without obeying Matthew 25.

So I don’t see how prayer or action can be more important than the other if you are in love with God.

The absence of either is a damnable offense because it indicates you are not really in love with God.

 

[Flyingg]

Great Gregg! Why Jesus prayed before his death as it is mentioned in the bible? If he and God are the same, why he said that may your will be done, NOT mine. Isn’t the will of the son and the father is the same? Are they one god but dependent in their will?

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Am I the only one who has noticed that prayer has gone from being able to “move mountains” (cf. Matthew 17:20) to “psychological healing”, “giving courage”, etc?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Flying

**Why Jesus prayed before his death as it is mentioned in the bible? If he and God are the same, why he said that may your will be done, NOT mine. Isn’t the will of the son and the father is the same? Are they one god but dependent in their will? **

The doctrine of the Incarnation is that Jesus is both God and Man. As man He prays to His Father in heaven for the strength he needs, just as any man would pray to his father in heaven for the strength he needs to get through a great and terrible crisis.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bohm

**Am I the only one who has noticed that prayer has gone from being able to “move mountains” (cf. Matthew 17:20) to “psychological healing”, “giving courage”, etc? **

There is no limit to the power of prayer in things big and small.

Miracles have followed prayer, not that any atheist would admit it.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Bohm

There is no limit to the power of prayer in things big and small.

Miracles have followed prayer, not that any atheist would admit it.

Why bother with prayer and “miracles” when you can have action and certainty?

 

[Flyingg]

Flying

**Why Jesus prayed before his death as it is mentioned in the bible? If he and God are the same, why he said that may your will be done, NOT mine. Isn’t the will of the son and the father is the same? Are they one god but dependent in their will? **

The doctrine of the Incarnation is that Jesus is both God and Man. As man He prays to His Father in heaven for the strength he needs, just as any man would pray to his father in heaven for the strength he needs to get through a great and terrible crisis.

I know that this would be the answer, but I thought that there is supposed to be another scientific logical answer, still I forgot that I was asking a religious question, where those criterias don’t fit in. Jesus did lots of things in the bible that people can’t do, but biologically he was like humans. How can you compare what jesus biologically did with prayers ( a spiritual process).?

 

[danserr]

Why bother with prayer and “miracles” when you can have action and certainty?

Prayer can make action more effective. Those who pray more tend to be more effective workers (the English evangelicals who abolished the slave trade, the early Church the abolished infanticide). The sociologist, Arthur C Brookes in Who Really Cares found religious people tend to donate more money, time and even blood. Those who work more for the poor, are also those who pray more.

Ending slavery was an enormous mountain that was moved, and it was moved by those who very fervently *prayed *for an end to it.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Great Gregg!

Hmm… Was this sarcasm? Well, in any case,

Why Jesus prayed before his death as it is mentioned in the bible?

That’s a hard question for me to answer. To my understanding, prayer is this: conversation with God (no more no less). He was having a sorrowful (really sorrowful) conversation. So, your question can now be phrased as such: “why did Jesus have a conversation with God…” In which case, you would understand better.

That and Jesus was the ultimate example of the Christian life of work and prayer.

That’s the best I can do. I know its not the best answer, but perhaps it may shed light on what I think about the question.

If he and God are the same, why he said that may your will be done, NOT mine.

You mean, “Jesus and the Father are of the same nature: God.”

Again, to my understanding, each Person of the Trinity are God, but each with different “functions” (to use non-religious terms). The Father is the Creator of the known world. The Son is the Redeemer of Man. The Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life.

While they are of the same nature, they are not the same thing. Jesus said over and over that He is there to do the will of His Father (hence, the Our Father).

I am not going to say that the Father is the only one who wills things because I don’t know that for sure. That may be the case though, since I have never heard of the Holy Spirit praying or having a will (while He is the one who leads us through prayer). So, the Father may (I don’t know for sure) be the one with the will here.

But I think the reason for your question was the confusion of the Trinitarian theology. While they are all considered One God, they don’t all do the exact thing and have the exact same purpose.

It is very confusing for me (obviously), so I can only imagine how confusing (and contradictory) it can be to an atheist. But this I do know: they are different. The Father didn’t die for us. The Son didn’t give life as the Holy Spirit does. They each have different functions.

Isn’t the will of the son and the father is the same?

I believe I answered that above. Let me know.

Are they one god but dependent in their will?

?

I know this post is unsatisfactory to you, but I am no expert on this, nor have claimed that. It gets pretty specific. I understand it, but it is really hard to put it into words, especially to an unbeliever.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I know that this would be the answer, but I thought that there is supposed to be another scientific logical answer, still I forgot that I was asking a religious question, where those criterias don’t fit in.

That’s an unfair accusation. Of course, they would seem illogical to those who don’t believe.

But I could easily make that same statement about atheism and it would be just as accurate.

Except the individuals don’t represent the whole demographics. Yes, there are “religoons” who really are unreasonable, irrational and illogical, but there are also atheists with those same characteristics, even in these forums. And I know you know this. And now you know that I know you know.

So, please? Pretty please? We already know you think we are morons. No need to be redundant.

 

[danserr]

I know that this would be the answer, but I thought that there is supposed to be another scientific logical answer, still I forgot that I was asking a religious question, where those criterias don’t fit in. Jesus did lots of things in the bible that people can’t do, but biologically he was like humans. How can you compare what jesus biologically did with prayers ( a spiritual process).?

There is no need to ridicule things that you can’t understand. It is no credit to you.

The short answer to your question is that there are orthodox understandings of the incarnation possible where Jesus was God, but did not know he was God (though he slowly came to believe he was). When God incarnated he chose to empty himself of his divinity to the point, that his divine nature was essentially subconscious. Hence he could pray sincerely.

 

[Flyingg]

Gregg, it was not a sarcasm, I did not intend to disrespect what you said in any way, the reason I said great, was because you have a good answer to the question, whether I agree with you or not. About the trinity, the will and the role of god, thank you for explaining it. But a question, you said you are confused about the trinity, how can you believe in something which you are confused about? Specially such an important thing.

 

[Flyingg]

There is no need to ridicule things that you can’t understand. It is no credit to you.

The short answer to your question is that there are orthodox understandings of the incarnation possible where Jesus was God, but did not know he was God (though he slowly came to believe he was). When God incarnated he chose to empty himself of his divinity to the point, that his divine nature was essentially subconscious. Hence he could pray sincerely.

Ok, you’re on what you said first!

 

[Julia_Mae]

Am I the only one who has noticed that prayer has gone from being able to “move mountains” (cf. Matthew 17:20) to “psychological healing”, “giving courage”, etc?

Well, you’re the only one who misinterpreted it that way. Prayer is inclusive of these things and more.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You said prayer is a “saving grace” so saved from what?

Separation from God.

Here’re your questions where you are answering things I never said.

Do you mean that a person who prays can be saved more than a person who doesn’t pray?
Why? Why is prayer necessary for salvation? Does “God” want us to worship him all the time? Does God needs us to pay that much attention to him? If not, why then prayer is important for salvation? Unless of course it’s not.

I presume you didn’t want any answers to these questions as you provided your own answers. You just wanted to opinionate a bit on the topic, is that correct?

If you want a discussion, start by telling me what you think prayer is.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Gregg, it was not a sarcasm, I did not intend to disrespect what you said in any way, the reason I said great, was because you have a good answer to the question, whether I agree with you or not.

I figured it was not sarcasm. But I had to be sure. Some people slip those things in.

It could have meant “Great Gregg! Now you’ve added more contradictory statements”. Haha…

Now, I know for sure that wasn’t the case.

About the trinity, the will and the role of god, thank you for explaining it.

Sure thing.

But a question, you said you are confused about the trinity, how can you believe in something which you are confused about? Specially such an important thing.

Well, my confusion is not about the reality of the Trinity. It is about the technical details that I was trying to explain. They are minor details also. Like “Does each Person of the Trinity have a will?” “If so, are they the same or different?” I am not even sure the Church has any doctrine on that. I dunno. That’s what am confused about. That and it is really hard explaining it to an atheist.

Does that make sense?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Flying

**how can you believe in something which you are confused about? Specially such an important thing. **

That’s a no-brainer.

My wife is constantly confusing me, yet I still believe in her … “a special and important thing!”

 

[Julia_Mae]

Like “Does each Person of the Trinity have a will?” “If so, are they the same or different?” I am not even sure the Church has any doctrine on that. I dunno.

Just FYI: one God. All Persons of the Trinity have the same Will, impossible for it to be otherwise, as they are One.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Just FYI: one God. All Persons of the Trinity have the same Will, impossible for it to be otherwise, as they are One.

But does the Catholic Church teach that they all have wills? That was my confusion.

And I just realized a mistake in my own confusion (if that makes any sense).

It would be impossible for them to have different wills, if each Person had different wills due to the nature of the Trinity.

So, here is my confusion:

Does the Church teach whether or not each Person of the Holy Trinity has a will?

 

[Flyingg]

I figured it was not sarcasm. But I had to be sure. Some people slip those things in.

It could have meant “Great Gregg! Now you’ve added more contradictory statements”. Haha…

Now, I know for sure that wasn’t the case.

Sure thing.

Well, my confusion is not about the reality of the Trinity. It is about the technical details that I was trying to explain. They are minor details also. Like “Does each Person of the Trinity have a will?” “If so, are they the same or different?” I am not even sure the Church has any doctrine on that. I dunno. That’s what am confused about. That and it is really hard explaining it to an atheist.

Does that make sense?

We can all be good or great in something, so great Gregg, yes you made sense a little. Thank you

If you want a discussion, start by telling me what you think prayer is.

To be honest Julia, I think prayers are a person talking to him/herself but thinking that they are talking to a high powerful being, I think of prayers is when we think we are doing everything while in fact we are changing nothing.

Charlemagne, your wife is a person, no doubts people exist, but there is lots of doubts about invisible powerful beings.