Which is more serious - killing the unborn or born?

[wynnejj]

Murder, on the other hand, is always wrong. Murder is the intentional killing of an innocent person.

:clapping: Excellent post. Love the way you laid it out and, I agree on most points.

The above quoted statement, though, needs to be questioned. To my understanding, Murder is the intentional killing of anyone outside of grounds for self-defense. That is, you are not to kill the innocent or the very bad.

Capital punishment is not allowed either and is corroborated I believe by the USA bishop’s “Faithful Citizenship” directive. Capital punishment on Calvary was used on the Good, Bad, and Ugly. Our Lord who was all good, the repentant bad guy, and the really ugly soul who was unrepentant. Man deemed all three as worthy of death. Why would Our Lord allow a death in this company as his statement to posterity? In my mind, it is to point out that man’s judgement is very flawed and can’t distinguish between the good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

[bilop]

:clapping: Excellent post. Love the way you laid it out and, I agree on most points.

The above quoted statement, though, needs to be questioned. To my understanding, Murder is the intentional killing of anyone outside of grounds for self-defense. That is, you are not to kill the innocent or the very bad.

Capital punishment is not allowed either and is corroborated I believe by the USA bishop’s “Faithful Citizenship” directive. Capital punishment on Calvary was used on the Good, Bad, and Ugly. Our Lord who was all good, the repentant bad guy, and the really ugly soul who was unrepentant. Man deemed all three as worthy of death. Why would Our Lord allow a death in this company as his statement to posterity? In my mind, it is to point out that man’s judgement is very flawed and can’t distinguish between the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Capital punishment is a matter of prudential judgement on which Catholics are free to disagree.

God Bless

 

[WindyHair]

The intrinsic worth and dignity of every human being has no relevance to age or ability.

true but a baby is still not a man, and a fetus is not a baby.
a potential baby, yes.

i’m against abortion also, i think most people are.
but i’m especially against abortion in dingy basement and hotels.

 

[mercygate]

true but a baby is still not a man, and a fetus is not a baby.
a potential baby, yes.

i’m against abortion also, i think most people are.
but i’m especially against abortion in dingy basement and hotels.

Both a fetus and a baby are fully human beings. “Fetus,” “baby” and “man” are mere descriptors of stages in human development. There is no “potential” about the humanity.

 

[bilop]

true but a baby is still not a man, and a fetus is not a baby.
a potential baby, yes.

i’m against abortion also, i think most people are.
but i’m especially against abortion in dingy basement and hotels.

No, a fetus is an actual baby. He or she has his own DNA, and is a completely unique human being. Eggs and sperm are “potential babies”.

This “dingy basement” argument is a red herring. When abortion was illegal in the U.S., illegal abortions were performed mostly by doctors in doctors offices. The number of women who died from illegal abortions was miniscule compared to the death toll from abortion

Even the most avid pro-abortionists only claim 10,000 women died per year from illegal abortion (I’ve read the real number was well under 1000), vs. over 1 million abortion every year in the U.S. since 1973.

God Bless

 

[WindyHair]

They had Communism (which allows abortion) from 1917 until 1989. Prior to that, abortion (and every other kind of birth control) was prohibited all over the world.

And?

Today, rapes often take place in dirty alley ways; should we legalize rape so that the girls can have something soft to lie on while they are being raped?

Murders often take place in uncomfortable circumstances, too, because of the fact that they are illegal - should we legalize murder so that it can become cleaner and more painless?

depends if they CHOSE to get raped.

great comparison there… but not really.

 

[WindyHair]

No, a fetus is an actual baby. He or she has his own DNA, and is a completely unique human being. Eggs and sperm are “potential babies”.

This “dingy basement” argument is a red herring. When abortion was illegal in the U.S., illegal abortions were performed mostly by doctors in doctors offices. The number of women who died from illegal abortions was miniscule.

God Bless

wow, since it was illegal and done discretely how would u really know?

maybe because it is legal and documented,
we now have a better idea of why people do it
and we can handle it better so that it doesn’t happen.

making abortion illegal is like turning a blind eye to it,
sweeping it under the rug. wow, now that it’s illegal,
no one’s ever going to do it! NOT.

so, now, abortions will not be documented and we will
have less of a chance to deter and educate girls/women
the day of their abortion. we will have less data on abortions.
and abortions will be done less humanely by pulling out
arms and legs.

 

[bilop]

wow, since it was illegal and done discretely how would u really know?

maybe because it is legal and documented,
we now have a better idea of why people do it
and we can handle it better so that it doesn’t happen.

Then why are there over 1 million abortions per year in the U.S?

We certainly don’t “handle it better” than we did before abortion was legal.

God Bless

 

[wynnejj]

do you guys know what happened is in russia when abortion
was prohibited by the governmant?

girls had abortions in dingy basements and hotels.
often times when the fetus was already in it’s trimester or later.

The sympathy vote that you are begging is akin to the sympathy vote for a person intent on murdering another person being interrupted and shot by the police.

This makes me want to amend my definition of Murder.
Murder is the killing of human life, whether or not innocent, except of instances of self-defence, defense of another’s life, and “just war”. A “just war” is a war against mass murder or evil governments that do not allow citizens to be Christians.

 

[WindyHair]

Then why are there over 1 million abortions per year in the U.S?

We certainly don’t “handle it better” than we did before abortion was legal.

God Bless

at least we have a good idea of how many are being done, that’s a start.

better than not knowing at all and pretending abortions don’t happen.

 

[Joe_5859]

:clapping: Excellent post. Love the way you laid it out and, I agree on most points.

The above quoted statement, though, needs to be questioned. To my understanding, Murder is the intentional killing of anyone outside of grounds for self-defense. That is, you are not to kill the innocent or the very bad.

Capital punishment is not allowed either and is corroborated I believe by the USA bishop’s “Faithful Citizenship” directive. Capital punishment on Calvary was used on the Good, Bad, and Ugly. Our Lord who was all good, the repentant bad guy, and the really ugly soul who was unrepentant. Man deemed all three as worthy of death. Why would Our Lord allow a death in this company as his statement to posterity? In my mind, it is to point out that man’s judgement is very flawed and can’t distinguish between the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Thanks.

I’ll try to clarify what I meant by my definition of murder.

I defined murder as the intentional killing of an innocent person. Under this definition, the victim would have to be all three: (1) a person; (2) innocent; and (3) and intentionally killed. Under this definition, in the case of self-defense, the person would not be innocent, thus it would not be murder.

Now that I typed that above paragrapgh, I think I see what you’re getting at. By using the word “innocent”, I definitely do not mean that all the “guilty” can therefore be killed willy-nilly, as though it’s not wrong to intentionally kill any person provided they are guilty of something. I suppose that’s the limitation of my simple definition.

I suppose, to be clearer, I could say that, the intentional killing of an innocent person is definitely murder. The intentional killing of a guilty (non-innocent) person may or may not be murder depending upon the circumstances. Well, in any case, I believe that we can agree that, anything that fits the first definition is murder, even if there may be cases outside that definition that may also be murder. For the purpose of this discussion, since abortion fits that definition, we can safely say that it is murder.

I agree that Capital Punishment is wrong in most cases today. However, the Church does leave the question open as to whether it can be allowed. This applies more to societies that do not have the means to incarcerate a prisoner for life. In other words, in this day and age, it is almost never necessary, but there are circumstances where it could be allowed (particularly in past times where the state did not have the means to incarcerate a prisoner for life).

Hope this helps clarify.

 

[bilop]

at least we have a good idea of how many are being done, that’s a start.

better than not knowing at all and pretending abortions don’t happen.

So you’d rather have 1 million (more like 1.3 million I think) legal abortions than 100-200,000 (to pick a number) illegal ones?

Sorry, I don’t get it.

God Bless

 

[WindyHair]

if you folks really want to stop abortion,
making it illegal is an EMOTIONAL SHORT SIGHTED
approach.

to stop abortion, you need to study it.
the only way to study it is to make it legal.
document who are getting abortions, what’s
the data? is it mostly young girls? blacks? rape victims?
who are these people and why are they
choosing aboritions? is it because of lack of education?
is it environmental?

look, companies can pretty much predict your
grocery patterns, eating patterns, music patterns,
even driving patterns… this is all done through
documented data and study!

 

[bilop]

I agree that Capital Punishment is wrong in most cases today. However, the Church does leave the question open as to whether it can be allowed. This applies more to societies that do not have the means to incarcerate a prisoner for life. In other words, in this day and age, it is almost never necessary, but there are circumstances where it could be allowed (particularly in past times where the state did not have the means to incarcerate a prisoner for life).
Hope this helps clarify.

Not just incarcerate, but the state needs to be able to render the prisoner incapable of doing harm.

If the prisoner is so dangerous as to be a threat to guards or other inmates, or could direct criminal activity outside of the jail, he could be executed under the current Catechism’s teaching.

Traditional Catholic teaching (pre-1990’s) allowed a much greater lattitude for capital punishment, but this isn’t the thread for that debate.

God Bless

 

[wynnejj]

what if the parents are to young i think they should give it up but they should not have sex:shrug:

If parents are too young, they should give the baby up for adoption. It is a shame that young people have been fooled by our popular culture into trivializing the sex act. When a man shoots a gun, he must take responsibility for whomever he shoots, regardless of whether he meant to hit someone or not. This is true with the sex act. The baby is not a “choice”, it is a “responsibility”. Contraception confuses the issue because it says “Look. I didn’t mean to have a baby. It didn’t work. Why should I have to take responsibility for something I clearly was trying to avoid.” That is the same as saying for the man who shoots a gun, “I was clearly shooting at a deer, but I shot a man and wounded him, but I don’t want to take responsibility so I shot him again to finish the job.” Your responsibility is to take the man to hospital, just like your responsibility is to take the baby to the adoption agency.

 

[Joe_5859]

making abortion illegal is like turning a blind eye to it,
sweeping it under the rug. wow, now that it’s illegal,
no one’s ever going to do it! NOT.

Does the fact that murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery are illegal mean that we are turning a blind eye to murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery? No.

Does the fact that murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery are illegal mean that no one ever murders, sells drugs, or robs banks? No.

Does this mean we should, therefore, repeal all laws against murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery? If not, then what weight does this argument have? None.

 

[bilop]

if you folks really want to stop abortion,
making it illegal is an EMOTIONAL SHORT SIGHTED
approach.

to stop abortion, you need to study it.
the only way to study it is to make it legal.
document who are getting abortions, what’s
the data? is it mostly young girls? blacks? rape victims?
who are these people and why are they
choosing aboritions? is it because of lack of education?
is it environmental?

look, companies can pretty much predict your
grocery patterns, eating patterns, music patterns,
even driving patterns… this is all done through
documented data and study!

Sorry, that is just crazy.

How may millions of babies do you wish to sacrifice to “understand” abortion?

Would you make the same argument for rape? “Since it’s illegal we don’t know the true motivations of the rapists. Were they abused? Were their Moms mean to them… Let’s make rape legal for a while so we can “understand” it, and convince rapists not to do it”

Absurd idea. Makes you sick right?

We don’t need to understand abortion at all. We need to, as a society declare it to be what it is, murder, and do eveything possible to end it.

We then need to help the mothers have the children and either raise them or give them up for adoption.

God Bless

 

[Joe_5859]

if you folks really want to stop abortion,
making it illegal is an EMOTIONAL SHORT SIGHTED
approach.

to stop abortion, you need to study it.
the only way to study it is to make it legal.
document who are getting abortions, what’s
the data? is it mostly young girls? blacks? rape victims?
who are these people and why are they
choosing aboritions? is it because of lack of education?
is it environmental?

look, companies can pretty much predict your
grocery patterns, eating patterns, music patterns,
even driving patterns… this is all done through
documented data and study!

Again, should we apply this same logic to anything that is immoral/illegal?

Should we legalize drug use so that we can gather data on who is using which drugs, why, and with what degree of frequency?

Should we legalize rape so that we can gather data on the psychological profiles of rapists?

That’s not a legitimate reason to keep something legal.

Was it an “emotional short-sighted” approach for people to want to make slavery illegal? They should have been gathering data instead!

Was it an “emotional short-sighted” approach to want to repeal laws that discriminated on the basis of color? Again, they should have seixed the opportunity for collecting data.

Yet another red herring.

 

[WindyHair]

Does the fact that murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery are illegal mean that we are turning a blind eye to murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery? No.

Does the fact that murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery are illegal mean that no one ever murders, sells drugs, or robs banks? No.

Does this mean we should, therefore, repeal all laws against murder, drug trafficking, and bank robbery? If not, then what weight does this argument have? None.

the argument is that even if you make it illegal,
it will continue to happen. which it looks like you agree.

now, the difference between abortion and murder/robbery
is that these people go in choosing to do this to their own body.
if someone was doing a forced abortion on you, that’s a totally
different story and is much closer to your examples.

 

[bilop]

the argument is that even if you make it illegal,
it will continue to happen. which it looks like you agree.

now, the difference between abortion and murder/robbery
is that these people go in choosing to do this to their own body.
if someone was doing a forced abortion on you, that’s a totally
different story and is much closer to your examples.

But it would happen in far fewer numbers. Like before abortion was legalized.

God Bless