Which is more serious - killing the unborn or born?

[jmcrae]

Not quite. Even if we get past man-made laws, we still have the Ten Commandments to deal with.

So do abortionists. It doesn’t seem to faze them.

 

[wynnejj]

What does this mean? They choose to kick, and swim around, and stuff like that. They don’t know very much, but they do react and respond to their environment - they know when it’s light out and when it’s dark, they hear their mother’s heartbeat and her voice, and they do have a sense of playfulness.

There’s a picture I once saw where a surgeon performing pre-natal surgery was in the process of sowing up the operation when the child’s hand comes out and holds the tip of the finger of the surgeon.

Also, the turning point for one avid pro-abortion activist, who performed an abortion on his own baby carried by his girl friend, came to his senses when he saw the film “The Silent Scream”. In the film, the baby fought for his life against the instruments that were grabbing him. It was this baby’s defense of his own life that made clear to him that abortion was murder of a sentient (self-aware) human being.

 

[jmcrae]

There’s a picture I once saw where a surgeon performing pre-natal surgery was in the process of sowing up the operation when the child’s hand comes out anc holds the tip of the finger of the surgeon.

I have also seen that picture - it’s beautiful!

Also, the turning point for one avid pro-abortion activist, who performed an abortion on his own baby carried by his girl friend, came to his senses when he saw the film “The Silent Scream”. In the film, the baby fought for his life against the instruments that were grabbing him. It was this baby’s defense of his own life that made clear that it was murder.

I was also very struck by that film, when I was young.

 

[wynnejj]

Depends on what you mean by a “full” life. I’ve read a lot of abortions are performed on deformed feti or even when parents have incompatible Rh factors.

Now you are talking about an area where Pro-Choice does have its strongest points, albeit it denies the dignity and choice of the baby. The fact is we all have “deformities” and “weaknesses” of body, mind and spirit. It is a by-product of original sin. Bodies fail, minds fail, and our spirit is rife with concupiscence - that tendency towards self-destruction. Most people that I know with serious deformities are not suicidal, although they do have problems with the way others respond to their deformities. Yet there are many of the “beautiful” people that commit suicide everyday.

The bottom line is that the Catholic church does not accept this argument for abortion either for the same reasons that it does not accept suicide, assisted or otherwise.

 

[mercygate]

No one is “perfect” but I don’t want to be argumentative here. You are right, any human or even non-human can have fullness of life, of course. But many people (not I or you, of course) don’t see it that way. Short people, crippled people, blind people, deaf people, retarded people, etc. are at a disadvantage, let’s face it. Shouldn’t be but they are. It just takes super parents to be able to deal with that. We have to treat these parents in these instances with all the respect in the world, though, in order to discourage those kinds of abortions in the future. Are we all up to it?

 

[wynnejj]

what if the parents are to young i think they should give it up but they should not have sex:shrug:

Your simple comment somehow touches me.

I once wrote a poem about reflections that I had about Mary, the Mother of Jesus. It had to do with how the devil might have tempted Mary after she had already given consent - “do unto me according to thy word”. Now she’s pregnant and has to go home. The devil would say “You are pregnant. Will God betray you now? You will be stoned to death in disgrace. Your betrothed Joseph, your parents and friends will be unable to stand beside you.” Is this not somewhat like the situation of a young girl, who unwisely loves a young man without the blessings and commitment of marriage, and then finds when she’s pregnant the boyfriend will not stand by her?

The RIGHT CHOICE

The young woman was beside herself,
a young woman with child

Her boyfriend was not quite himself,
could not help but be riled

Her folks struggled to control themselves,
their child was defiled

Her friends talked amongst themselves,
“She’s never been wild!”

Her fortunes were against her,
to be mother yet unmarried

Her fate was proscribed for her,
to the gates she’d be carried

Who’d cast the first stone?
To be blamed, shamed and harried!

Should the stone be rejected?
To be approved? To be married?

Such an idea she rejected,
for she could not conceive

That a child could be rejected,
for she would not believe

God loves not those rejected,
and she could not deceive

Her heart, though dejected,
she’d accept and receive

The Baby God gave her,
whatever price and invoice,

As a gift that she’d forever prize
and forever rejoice…

“Blessed are you among women,
you made the Right Choice!”

Said the God from within,
said the Child with No Voice!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

joe589, nope, but my next question to you is this:

is killing a baby the same as killing a man (adult)?
does baby = adult?

You miss the point altogether, or at worst, attempt to confuse the issue. Whether it be embryo, baby or adult, we have a human. Killing an innocent human is murder.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[edward_george]

i’m not deciding for anyone.
it’s for their parents to decide.

when you take away a parents choice to decide to abort,
you, at the same time, take away their choice to give birth also.

how so? because it’s no longer a matter of choice but law.
your parents no longer chose to have you, it’s because they had to.

I’m not deciding for anyone. It’s for the murderers to decide.

when you take away a murderer’s choice to murder, you at the same time, take away their choice to let live too.

how so? because it’s no longer a matter of choice but law. that mugger in the alleyway no longer chose to let you live, it’s because he had to.

 

[wynnejj]

What if our local Christian churches, due to governmental controls affecting church finances and charitable institutions, and for non-violent dialog reasons, and for reasons of not turning away souls who may have engaged in the practice, had refused to decry the practice vigorously and did not even include a weekly prayer petition for our country to end the practice?

Is this scenario more serious than the status quo of abortion in the USA?

I am surprised that none of the posts took me up on this challenge. Do your parishes in the list of prayer petitions say a prayer related to the Sanctity of Life, or an end to the culture of death, or an end to abortion in the USA? I’m seeing more of a trend toward explicit prayer petitions to end abortion, but very slowly and certainly not vigorously. I would say prior to this year, my count has been 1 in 13 weeks has a prayer petition at Sunday Mass to end abortion. The other 12 in 13 weeks do not have a prayer on behalf of the wrong done to 20,000 to 25,000 human lives that were - dare I say it - MURDERED. I have never heard the words “Abortion is Murder” coming from a pulpit and I go to mass every Sunday.

So let me ask this question another way. Is a church morally depraved if it rarely prays at Sunday Mass for an end to the murders of 20,000 to 25,000 teenagers each week?

 

[mercygate]

I am surprised that none of the posts took me up on this challenge. Do your parishes in the list of prayer petitions say a prayer related to the Sanctity of Life, or an end to the culture of death, or an end to abortion in the USA? I’m seeing more of a trend toward explicit prayer petitions to end abortion, but very slowly and certainly not vigorously. I would say prior to this year, my count has been 1 in 13 weeks has a prayer petition at Sunday Mass to end abortion. The other 12 in 13 weeks do not have a prayer on behalf of the wrong done to 20,000 to 25,000 human lives that were - dare I say it - MURDERED. I have never heard the words “Abortion is Murder” coming from a pulpit and I go to mass every Sunday.

So let me ask this question another way. Is a church morally depraved if it rarely prays at Sunday Mass for an end to the murders of 20,000 to 25,000 teenagers each week?

We have Eucharistic Adoration for Life at least quarterly; there is a pro-life group that is highly visible, always collecting things for new babies, at least one Mass a week is offered for those who have been killed or scarred by abortion.

 

[jmcrae]

I am surprised that none of the posts took me up on this challenge. Do your parishes in the list of prayer petitions say a prayer related to the Sanctity of Life, or an end to the culture of death, or an end to abortion in the USA? I’m seeing more of a trend toward explicit prayer petitions to end abortion, but very slowly and certainly not vigorously. I would say prior to this year, my count has been 1 in 13 weeks has a prayer petition at Sunday Mass to end abortion. The other 12 in 13 weeks do not have a prayer on behalf of the wrong done to 20,000 to 25,000 human lives that were - dare I say it - MURDERED. I have never heard the words “Abortion is Murder” coming from a pulpit and I go to mass every Sunday.

So let me ask this question another way. Is a church morally depraved if it rarely prays at Sunday Mass for an end to the murders of 20,000 to 25,000 teenagers each week?

We pray for all of these intentions - the unborn, teenagers at risk for prostitution and gang involvement, the unemployed, the addicted - politicians - and everyone else who is at high risk in our society.

I don’t know where you live, but this seems pretty standard where ever I have gone to Mass.

 

[WindyHair]

let me end with this:

do you know who the biggest abortioner is? God.
every day hundreds of thousands, if not millions,
of “babies” are still born or miscarriaged.

that would make God the biggest pro-choicer of all.

 

[jmcrae]

let me end with this:

do you know who the biggest abortioner is? God.
every day hundreds of thousands, if not millions,
of “babies” are still born or miscarriaged.

that would make God the biggest pro-choicer of all.

God is also the biggest murder and maimer, come to that, since it is He who chooses the consequences of our poor decisions, and who brings our lives to their end, ultimately.

But we are not God. Just because God does these things does not give us the right to do them, too. It is God who is in charge of who lives and who dies, because all of life belongs to Him - not us.

 

[wynnejj]

We pray for all of these intentions - the unborn, teenagers at risk for prostitution and gang involvement, the unemployed, the addicted - politicians - and everyone else who is at high risk in our society.

I don’t know where you live, but this seems pretty standard where ever I have gone to Mass.

It was 10 or more years after Roe vs Wade that I had ever heard of the word “abortion”. In that year, the abortion rate was about 1.5 million per year. I know I don’t read newspapers, but I was appalled that I had heard nothing from the pulpit. Now I wasn’t alerted up to this point, so I’m not sure that the prayer petitions were not somehow nicely worded that I might have missed them, but I’m fairly certain that I never heard a sermon on the subject. After that point, I was alerted and I was watching. Up until the last couple of years, a prayer petition on behalf of life was rare, I remember when the Hyde Amendment came out to stop funding of abortion clinics with tax dollars, and our parish priest told us about the petitions and said “Just think about it.”. I started praying in front of abortion clinics once a month on a Saturday and, we’d go over to the local church afterwards to attend Mass. One Saturday, those doors were shut to us without a notice.

This year there has been a change for the better. Sunday Mass starts with the announcement, “Welcome to Saint xxxx, a Pro-Life Parish”.

This country has had prominent re-elected Pro-Abortion Catholics for a long time, and each one has a constituency of Catholics consistently backing them up. No one can tell me that the Catholic Church has been anywhere near exercising their teaching authority. And I know in my area, the prayer petitions and catechesis at Sunday Mass has been lacking.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

let me end with this:

do you know who the biggest abortioner is? God.
every day hundreds of thousands, if not millions,
of “babies” are still born or miscarriaged.

that would make God the biggest pro-choicer of all.

I see your confusion does not end. In your profile, you claim to be an agnostic. Yet, in your hatred of God, you make no hesitation to blame him for the wrongs of humans. If you do not know if he exists (i.e., an agnostic), how do you profess to blame him, if he does not exist. That is contradictory in itself. You will remain in my prayers.
Deacon Ed B

 

[wynnejj]

We have Eucharistic Adoration for Life at least quarterly; there is a pro-life group that is highly visible, always collecting things for new babies, at least one Mass a week is offered for those who have been killed or scarred by abortion.

That is very heartening indeed. I wish I was in your neck of the woods.

 

[mercygate]

That is very heartening indeed. I wish I was in your neck of the woods.

Although all of the pro-life work in our parish has the Pastor’s support, it is entirely a lay initiative.

So maybe YOU are the fulcrum for bringing this to YOUR neck of the woods!

 

[wynnejj]

let me end with this:

do you know who the biggest abortioner is? God.
every day hundreds of thousands, if not millions,
of “babies” are still born or miscarriaged.

that would make God the biggest pro-choicer of all.

The Lord giveth. The Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

WindyHair,

You’ve given us a good running dialogue for the money. Let me say this in parting. I’ve often wondered how Pro-Abortion people think. Yes, there are those who just want to do what they want to do, regardless of morals. But there are those that think that it is the “responsible” thing to do, the “lesser of two evils” in an unwanted pregnancy. Most do not think that third trimester (and beyond) abortions are OK. But that first trimester is just maybe morally OK, given the “lesser of two evils” argument. If you do not believe in God, you might argue that the feti have no real pain centers, no sentient self-aware mental faculties. The death is maybe not-so painful. That maybe the fetus is just a “blob of tissue” as I have heard it referred to.

As a Christian who believes that Jesus Christ was the man-god who was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we must remember that He went through all three trimesters, including the “blob of tissue” stage. He accepted mankind as his brothers and sisters. We’re family. What we do unto his brothers and sisters at this stage, is what we do unto Him. This is essentially the Christian perspective that would seem irrational to a secular humanist that does not allow God into the equation when making their sense of moral ethics.

God Bless You in your search for truth.

 

[Brenda_V]

It was 10 or more years after Roe vs Wade that I had ever heard of the word “abortion”. In that year, the abortion rate was about 1.5 million per year.

I have no idea where you live but I heard about it minutes after the decision for R v W was made! I was in High School at the time - a Catholic one. To tell the truth, our Principal made an announcement over the loudspeakers and every one of our classes stopped what they were doing and said a prayer as we cried for all those unborn babies being killed!

The churches all started adding pro-life prayer petitions as well. I do think though that many were just stunned that this decision could be made and as a result were paralyzed by surprise! “How could a thinking group of men (and women) make such a decision? What were they thinking? This is supposed to be the highest court in the land with men and women who are the best educated in the law!” Like I say, we were all just stunned at the ruling.

Brenda V.

 

[WindyHair]

God is also the biggest murder and maimer, come to that, since it is He who chooses the consequences of our poor decisions, and who brings our lives to their end, ultimately.

But we are not God. Just because God does these things does not give us the right to do them, too. It is God who is in charge of who lives and who dies, because all of life belongs to Him - not us.

so what you’re saying is that all those people that
died in 9-11 attack was god’s will. he chooses right?

guess what? doctor’s sometimes have to choose who
lives and who dies. courts sometimes have to choose who
lives and who dies.

with your reasoning, next time you or your loved one is sick,
just stay home and pray to god, really hard. he will decide
whether you live or die.