Which is older Genesis, Epic of Gilgamesh and Sumerians?

[Dan_Daly]

From Praestantia Scripturae:

Can you point to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that’s expressed in the quote you provided? That is, if this is something we’re bound to hold (i.e., that the Scriptural accounts of the first few chapters of Genesis are historically accurate), then there must be a doctrinal statement that the PBC is upholding. Where’s that statement?

Thanks!

Sure, there are many points of doctrine contained in the PBC findings that Pope St. Pius X made binding. The one in particular that the first 3 chapters of Genesis are not “sanitized” Pagan myths.

Pax

 

[puzzleannie]

Ok does this seem correct…i have constantly heard people saying that the book of Genesis is a copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh and Sumerian myths. !

we studied Gilgamesh in my college western civ and there is very little similarity between it an Genesis, and what there is such as the flood, are what you would expect from ancient sources in that part of the world, if Genesis is correct.

 

[Granpa_Lemon]

There was no one flood!
There must have been many floods in the old days.
It so happens that Noah gets all caught up in one of them as the main character in an Old Testament morality play.
Noah’s flood was supposed to be about 7-8,000 years ago, I think.
Sumer was the first recorded civilization about the same time, I believe.

 

[Vladd]

There was no one flood!
There must have been many floods in the old days.
It so happens that Noah gets all caught up in one of them as the main character in an Old Testament morality play.
Noah’s flood was supposed to be about 7-8,000 years ago, I think.
Sumer was the first recorded civilization about the same time, I believe.

I thought the bible said that the earth was 6000 years old, am I wrong? If I’m right then if the flood of Noah happened 7-8000 years ago then something isn’t adding up. Maybe we should see were the name Noah derives from .The name Noah means peace, eternity and the soul, same thing the Egyptian Ankh symbol means. That is very interesting being that the Jewish people didn’t receive anything until after their captivity. I hope to get some extra ideas or facts on this from you guys because I can’t put the pieces together, im kind of scared to in a way.

 

[Vladd]

Ok does this seem correct…i have constantly heard people saying that the book of Genesis is a copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh and Sumerian myths. Even in my history textbook for school it says that the seven days of creation from the book of Genesis came from Sumerian myths. When i read the sumerian creation accounts( or a summary of them) from the seven stone tablets, it seems like there is not to much similarity between them. The flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh is similar to the flood in Genesis in more ways. My question is which one came first? There seems to have obviously been a massive flood if there are many ancient traditions with floods in them. But is it true that the stories in Genesis were passed down orally for many many years, and some people twisted these stories and in turn formed creation stories such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Sumerian beliefs about creation? And then Moses came and corrected the people who had changed the stories and the true creation account was written down and is inspired? Please let me know if this sounds right or if u disagree or have anything to add thanks!

That’s what I can’t figure out, as far as what’s older by testing it would suggest that Moses took the story of Gilgamesh and twisted it, this is where I am having a issue, dosnt make since to me to say its the other way around when the Sumerian tablets are older than any Torah or Bible on earth. To add to this and please correct me if I’m wrong but how can people twist stories from genesis and then Moses come later and fix it when the genesis chapter wasn’t even around to be taken and twisted from until Moses introduced the 5 books of the Torah . See what I mean ? What I’m saying is there was not a genesis to steal from because there wasn’t a genesis until Moses came. Atleast that’s the logical thing to think , please help out On this subject .

 

[bmullins]

That’s what I can’t figure out, as far as what’s older by testing it would suggest that Moses took the story of Gilgamesh and twisted it, this is where I am having a issue, dosnt make since to me to say its the other way around when the Sumerian tablets are older than any Torah or Bible on earth. To add to this and please correct me if I’m wrong but how can people twist stories from genesis and then Moses come later and fix it when the genesis chapter wasn’t even around to be taken and twisted from until Moses introduced the 5 books of the Torah . See what I mean ? What I’m saying is there was not a genesis to steal from because there wasn’t a genesis until Moses came. Atleast that’s the logical thing to think , please help out On this subject .

The earth would be roughly 6000 years old, if the bible were literal. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I don’t think it was written to be taken literally, I think it was written to teach spiritual truths. Now the earth being 6000 years does not mean the flood was 6000 years ago, but rather that if the bible were true chronologically, the flood would have happened roughly between 2500 BC and 2300 BC. Which is interesting, because if memory serves (and I’m no expert on it) but the Gilgamesh scrolls speak of the era from 2150-2000 BC. Which means both could be talking about the same flood.

Neither of which means “Moses” stole the story. In fact, Abraham was from the same area as Sumeria which would mean it was a story he would be familiar with as well. That’s not stealing, it means they both have the same heritage.

Now the thing is we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. Which means the story, in the form it is in, in the Bible… is the one God wants us to have. It is to teach us a specific lesson about mankind, and about the flood.

One other thing to consider, Christians and Jews both see the Torah as the written word of God. We don’t believe it only came into existence when Moses wrote it down. We believe that it has existed eternally, and people wrote it down as they were inspired by God… but it has always existed.

 

[Vladd]

The earth would be roughly 6000 years old, if the bible were literal. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I don’t think it was written to be taken literally, I think it was written to teach spiritual truths. Now the earth being 6000 years does not mean the flood was 6000 years ago, but rather that if the bible were true chronologically, the flood would have happened roughly between 2500 BC and 2300 BC. Which is interesting, because if memory serves (and I’m no expert on it) but the Gilgamesh scrolls speak of the era from 2150-2000 BC. Which means both could be talking about the same flood.

Neither of which means “Moses” stole the story. In fact, Abraham was from the same area as Sumeria which would mean it was a story he would be familiar with as well. That’s not stealing, it means they both have the same heritage.

Now the thing is we believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. Which means the story, in the form it is in, in the Bible… is the one God wants us to have. It is to teach us a specific lesson about mankind, and about the flood.

One other thing to consider, Christians and Jews both see the Torah as the written word of God. We don’t believe it only came into existence when Moses wrote it down. We believe that it has existed eternally, and people wrote it down as they were inspired by God… but it has always existed.

Thanks from your patience and reply , the era of the tablets was 3300 bc as I know what you mean by that! Good answer it’s something for me to think about, I thank you for that.

 

[Gorgias]

Uh, did you actually read what I wrote? I pointed out that the ship in the Sumerian version was maneuverable. That’s where the advanced technology comes in. The ark just floated.

Can you do me a favor and point me to the place in the text where it says that he steered the boat? I went back to my notes and found nothing. Or is it that you’re talking about the fact that they launched the boat – that it sat in water prior to the flood?

In any case, the Sumerian “ark” just floated, too!

Nonetheless, when I “read what you wrote”, it made me laugh – a cube is more advanced naval technology than the ark of Genesis?

Forty years ago the general consensus was that the Sumerian version came first. That hasn’t changed but it doesn’t mean it’s correct, either. What evidence do you know of in the past 40 years that changes anything I said?

Well, here’s what I was taught (and it was within the past four years, not forty): in the past, we got very caught up in “who came first”, falling into the trap of a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. in other words, if Enuma Elish came first, then the Genesis account must clearly be copied from it!

However, if we look at the differences between the two, a different understanding emerges; this understanding allows us to juxtapose two ideas that were previously in contention – Enuma Elish was written prior to Genesis, and Genesis is not copied from the Enuma Elish (and the flood epic, too).

How can we make this leap? Aren’t earlier works “real” and later ones “derivative”? Not necessarily. Would we consider a parody “derivative”, or simply trafficking in the same tropes as the work it lampoons?

Well, as some have posted here, ancient Hebrews lived in a context that was well aware of Sumerian culture and beliefs. The Sumerians, in their creation epic, believed that the creation of life wasn’t a good thing, but was evil; in fact, if memory serves, people were created out of mud and dragon’s blood. Moreover, the gods weren’t in control. The Sumerian creation epic paints a picture of chaos and produces a negative outlook on creation and life on earth.

However, when God inspired the Bible, he had other ideas in mind. He wanted to demonstrate that He was in control of all creation, and that all that was created was good. He wanted to show us that what gave us life wasn’t demon’s blood, but His own breath. And so, the inspired writer of the Genesis responds to the context that his contemporaries already know. Does he “copy” Sumerian legend? No – he counters it. He shows that his God is higher than Sumerian gods – his God has control, and has a loving relationship with creation!

So, based on what I was taught, that’s how I understand it. The accounts of Genesis respond to Sumerian legend, and demonstrate how God is superior to the Sumerian pantheon. Are they “copying” the Gilgamesh accounts? No – but they recognize that they’re part of the landscape of the Hebrew experience, and they’re rebutting what the epics say, cleverly utilizing them as they tell God’s story…

 

[Vladd]

Can you do me a favor and point me to the place in the text where it says that he steered the boat? I went back to my notes and found nothing. Or is it that you’re talking about the fact that they launched the boat – that it sat in water prior to the flood?

In any case, the Sumerian “ark” just floated, too!

Nonetheless, when I “read what you wrote”, it made me laugh – a cube is more advanced naval technology than the ark of Genesis?

Well, here’s what I was taught (and it was within the past four years, not forty): in the past, we got very caught up in “who came first”, falling into the trap of a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. in other words, if Enuma Elish came first, then the Genesis account must clearly be copied from it!

However, if we look at the differences between the two, a different understanding emerges; this understanding allows us to juxtapose two ideas that were previously in contention – Enuma Elish was written prior to Genesis, and Genesis is not copied from the Enuma Elish (and the flood epic, too).

How can we make this leap? Aren’t earlier works “real” and later ones “derivative”? Not necessarily. Would we consider a parody “derivative”, or simply trafficking in the same tropes as the work it lampoons?

Well, as some have posted here, ancient Hebrews lived in a context that was well aware of Sumerian culture and beliefs. The Sumerians, in their creation epic, believed that the creation of life wasn’t a good thing, but was evil; in fact, if memory serves, people were created out of mud and dragon’s blood. Moreover, the gods weren’t in control. The Sumerian creation epic paints a picture of chaos and produces a negative outlook on creation and life on earth.

However, when God inspired the Bible, he had other ideas in mind. He wanted to demonstrate that He was in control of all creation, and that all that was created was good. He wanted to show us that what gave us life wasn’t demon’s blood, but His own breath. And so, the inspired writer of the Genesis responds to the context that his contemporaries already know. Does he “copy” Sumerian legend? No – he counters it. He shows that his God is higher than Sumerian gods – his God has control, and has a loving relationship with creation!

So, based on what I was taught, that’s how I understand it. The accounts of Genesis respond to Sumerian legend, and demonstrate how God is superior to the Sumerian pantheon. Are they “copying” the Gilgamesh accounts? No – but they recognize that they’re part of the landscape of the Hebrew experience, and they’re rebutting what the epics say, cleverly utilizing them as they tell God’s story…

I was taught totally different , I was taught the gods of Sumeria false insinuated their sperm in homo erectus and made homo sapien, which would be us. Im confused I don’t know what to think anymore, so many different versions. Who is right?

 

[bmullins]

I was taught totally different , I was taught the gods of Sumeria false insinuated their sperm in homo erectus and made homo sapien, which would be us. Im confused I don’t know what to think anymore, so many different versions. Who is right?

If I were you I’d ask God that question. I’d go in prayer and say “If you are God, and this is right… show me which is right.”

 

[TarkanAttila]

So you obviously agree that the earth is over 6000 years old along with me , look up Sumerian civilization , it was before mesopotamia . Thanks for replying, as far as giving you a direct site I will have to dig back in my studies . Please understand this is something I have been puting over 7 years research in and will have to go through files etc to find the direct sites. However you can look up the Sumerian tablets with the epic story and gilgamesh story and it will take you to the British museum to see for yourself, or google Sumerian civilization . Thanks for you patience.

facepalm:doh2:

Mesopotamia is a location, not a civilization. Sumeria emerged in c. 4000 BC IN Mesopotamia, which lies between the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what we call the Fertile Crescent. Sumeria began in the region known as Mesopotamia.

Do a quick google of “Sumeria” and “neolithic revolution”, and you will find most sites that have anything to say on its history will say the Neolithic Revolution did not even take place until c. 10,000 - 6,000 BC. Sumeria began c. 4000-3500 BC according to most, 6000 years (at least) after the time you consider it to have begun.

Of course, if you consider the Neolithic Revolution to be the beginning of the Sumerian civilization, then by your definition (but surely no popular opinion, scholastically or otherwise) yes, Sumeria began c. 10,000 BC.

But they certainly weren’t writing clay tablets during the era when they were just beginning to grow grain crops. :nope: You have been misinformed, I’m afraid. Even my old high school history textbook, from just 5 years ago at worst, contradicts your dating.

Even your beloved “British Museum” contradicts you; it says that well before 3500 BC the Sumerians were drawing simple pictures… but nothing even close to 10,000 BC.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I was taught totally different , I was taught the gods of Sumeria false insinuated their sperm in homo erectus and made homo sapien, which would be us. Im confused I don’t know what to think anymore, so many different versions. Who is right?

Who taught you this??? I’ve never heard such a thing in my life! Did pagans even known about H. Erectus? Or is this a neopagan thing?

 

[Vladd]

Who taught you this??? I’ve never heard such a thing in my life! Did pagans even known about H. Erectus? Or is this a neopagan thing?

It’s from the Sumerian tablets , if you’ll use common since when Enki is false insimanating one it’s to scoot the ape men up in evolution making them as the Gods. That’s another good point that has always baffled me. In the garden god says we have been made like Gods and wants to know who did it , then curses Adam and Eve. See the similarities? I’m not saying what’s wrong or what’s right, I simply don’t know. I’m only laying facts out and asking what others think hoping someone can guide me to the right way , you know what I mean?

 

[Vladd]

facepalm:doh2:

Mesopotamia is a location, not a civilization. Sumeria emerged in c. 4000 BC IN Mesopotamia, which lies between the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what we call the Fertile Crescent. Sumeria began in the region known as Mesopotamia.

Do a quick google of “Sumeria” and “neolithic revolution”, and you will find most sites that have anything to say on its history will say the Neolithic Revolution did not even take place until c. 10,000 - 6,000 BC. Sumeria began c. 4000-3500 BC according to most, 6000 years (at least) after the time you consider it to have begun.

Of course, if you consider the Neolithic Revolution to be the beginning of the Sumerian civilization, then by your definition (but surely no popular opinion, scholastically or otherwise) yes, Sumeria began c. 10,000 BC.

But they certainly weren’t writing clay tablets during the era when they were just beginning to grow grain crops. :nope: You have been misinformed, I’m afraid. Even my old high school history textbook, from just 5 years ago at worst, contradicts your dating.

Even your beloved “British Museum” contradicts you; it says that well before 3500 BC the Sumerians were drawing simple pictures… but nothing even close to 10,000 BC.

I don’t understand your anger , I sense it in your tone of text. I’m only wanting to get answers because I’m confused so I figure the catholic way could explain more to me than any other :-/ I wouldn’t use a high school history book as fact being that if all this has been twisted around then not one soul is gonna decipher it so high school children can know it. I am sorry if you think I’m just being dumb but I really am only seeking help and answers even suggestions, after 11 years of study and countless hours of research I still don’t have the answers.

 

[Vladd]

If I were you I’d ask God that question. I’d go in prayer and say “If you are God, and this is right… show me which is right.”

What should I expect if I do that ?

 

[TarkanAttila]

I don’t understand your anger , I sense it in your tone of text. I’m only wanting to get answers because I’m confused so I figure the catholic way could explain more to me than any other :-/ I wouldn’t use a high school history book as fact being that if all this has been twisted around then not one soul is gonna decipher it so high school children can know it. I am sorry if you think I’m just being dumb but I really am only seeking help and answers even suggestions, after 11 years of study and countless hours of research I still don’t have the answers.

Forgive me, but I don’t think 4000 BC changes just because you advance from high school to college, or from undergrad to grad. Maybe it’s fine-tweaked a bit, but I don’t understand how an educated person such as yourself could be taught something so vastly contradictory - not just evolved, but completely different and antithetical to your previous education - as to go from believing Sumeria started in 4000 BC in high school (everyone was taught ~4000 BC give or take a few centuries) to believing it started over 6 millenia earlier 11 or more years later. 6000 years is a massive margin of error, wouldn’t you agree?

It’s not so much anger as frustration. Somehow every secondary school textbook in America - nay, the Western World - is erroneous in saying that Sumeria began as a civilization c. 4000 BC. I would like to know either how such a large error, of thousands of years, can be made on such a grand scale - covering all of Europe and North America - or how you came to such a conclusion that the vast majority of anthropologists and historians have not stumbled upon.

In other words, I am incredibly bewildered. I don’t understand how either you or the vast majority of historians could make such a large error in dating the civilization of Sumeria or their clay tablets.

It’s from the Sumerian tablets , if you’ll use common since when Enki is false insimanating one it’s to scoot the ape men up in evolution making them as the Gods. That’s another good point that has always baffled me. **In the garden god says we have been made like Gods and wants to know who did it , then curses Adam and Eve. **See the similarities? I’m not saying what’s wrong or what’s right, I simply don’t know. I’m only laying facts out and asking what others think hoping someone can guide me to the right way , you know what I mean?

Genesis 3 D-RB:

1Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise?

2And the woman answered him, saying: Of the fruit of the trees that are in paradise we do eat:

3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.

4And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.

5For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

6And the woman saw that the tree was good to eat, and fair to the eyes, and delightful to behold: and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave to her husband who did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened: and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons.

8And when they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in paradise at the afternoon air, Adam and his wife hid themselves from the face of the Lord God, amidst the trees of paradise.

9And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou?

10And he said: I heard thy voice in paradise; and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself.

11And he said to him: And who hath told thee that thou wast naked, but that thou hast eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat?

12And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat.

I’m afraid I don’t get it. Satan was the one who said the fruit would make them like gods, not God. Satan is sort of the polar opposite of God. Satan is not God.

God did not make Adam and Eve like gods and then punish them for it. :nope:

Your facts are very confused.

Uh… somewhat off-topic, but is English your first language?

 

[bmullins]

What should I expect if I do that ?

What should you expect indeed? If God is who we say he is then he’s more than capable of telling you who he is, or at least pointing you in the right direction. (The fact that you’ve been led to a Catholic board seems to indicate to me that he’s already doing that.)

If the Christian God is not real… then praying to him will be nothing at all will it? If you are truly seeking truth, truly wondering if all of this is true, there is a being out there who can show you first hand in your mind and heart that it IS true.

When I first came to Catholicism I came to prove to my wife that she was wrong. That her church was a bunch of hogwash and that my beliefs were the right ones. I went to mass looking for reasons to condemn it, and searching my bible every time someone said something in order to make sure it was unbiblical so I could get home and go ‘Ahah! See I told you that Catholics did this!’

I was quickly convinced that not only was the Catholic church biblical, but that everything I was seeing in the mass was directly from the bible. Even the things I grasped on to, the things I was positive were not in there… when I researched and read, I found out they were indeed there.

Now before I came to this state I was disheartened with Christianity. I began to search other religions. I spent time with studying wicca, buddhism, toaism, even contemplated the druids, and pantheism. It wasn’t until I asked God to show me where I’m supposed to be that I felt an unshakable urge to really get back into Christianity.

 

[Vladd]

What should you expect indeed? If God is who we say he is then he’s more than capable of telling you who he is, or at least pointing you in the right direction. (The fact that you’ve been led to a Catholic board seems to indicate to me that he’s already doing that.)

If the Christian God is not real… then praying to him will be nothing at all will it? If you are truly seeking truth, truly wondering if all of this is true, there is a being out there who can show you first hand in your mind and heart that it IS true.

When I first came to Catholicism I came to prove to my wife that she was wrong. That her church was a bunch of hogwash and that my beliefs were the right ones. I went to mass looking for reasons to condemn it, and searching my bible every time someone said something in order to make sure it was unbiblical so I could get home and go ‘Ahah! See I told you that Catholics did this!’

I was quickly convinced that not only was the Catholic church biblical, but that everything I was seeing in the mass was directly from the bible. Even the things I grasped on to, the things I was positive were not in there… when I researched and read, I found out they were indeed there.

Now before I came to this state I was disheartened with Christianity. I began to search other religions. I spent time with studying wicca, buddhism, toaism, even contemplated the druids, and pantheism. It wasn’t until I asked God to show me where I’m supposed to be that I felt an unshakable urge to really get back into Christianity.

I’ve got to admit , you just got my attention! Thank you

 

[Vladd]

Forgive me, but I don’t think 4000 BC changes just because you advance from high school to college, or from undergrad to grad. Maybe it’s fine-tweaked a bit, but I don’t understand how an educated person such as yourself could be taught something so vastly contradictory - not just evolved, but completely different and antithetical to your previous education - as to go from believing Sumeria started in 4000 BC in high school (everyone was taught ~4000 BC give or take a few centuries) to believing it started over 6 millenia earlier 11 or more years later. 6000 years is a massive margin of error, wouldn’t you agree?

It’s not so much anger as frustration. Somehow every secondary school textbook in America - nay, the Western World - is erroneous in saying that Sumeria began as a civilization c. 4000 BC. I would like to know either how such a large error, of thousands of years, can be made on such a grand scale - covering all of Europe and North America - or how you came to such a conclusion that the vast majority of anthropologists and historians have not stumbled upon.

In other words, I am incredibly bewildered. I don’t understand how either you or the vast majority of historians could make such a large error in dating the civilization of Sumeria or their clay tablets.

I’m afraid I don’t get it. Satan was the one who said the fruit would make them like gods, not God. Satan is sort of the polar opposite of God. Satan is not God.

God did not make Adam and Eve like gods and then punish them for it. :nope:

Your facts are very confused.

Uh… somewhat off-topic, but is English your first language?

I know Satan was the one who told them they could be like Gods, and Enki was the one who false insiminated the ape men to make them like Gods then went on to save man from the flood that the other Gods wanted them to die in And for that was banished so to say and labeled evil. Is there a connection here?

 

[Granpa_Lemon]

The earth can’t be only 6k years old. Recorded history of the first civilizations are older than that!
Thats how the Jews reckon history too. They also say that the earth is only about 6,000 years old too. But, what they probably mean is that the FIRST Jew was created at that time. Thats how I understand it. People get all goofy when it come to religion. They will force themselves to believ in the WEIRDEST things just to make it all fit into a nice, neat package. But, it doesn’t work that way. If you can’t live with some ambiguity, better off not studying religion then.