Which is the Rock: Peter, or the truth of Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God?

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I’ve heard the Catholic arugument for Peter being the Rock,but here (the link below) is a non-Catholic or Protstant rebuttal. What are your comments/thoughts?
christiancourier.com/articles/552-was-peter-the-rock
I am just going to write in simple common language …

First of all the artical sets up a false argument … that the Rock can only reference one reality Peter …or Jesus being the Messiah …or Jesus Himself… or Peter’s confesion … etc … We have heard these arguments … all of them …

The passage in scripture must be read first as it is …

Jesus asks a question, Simon answers correctly, Jesus says this response is divinely inspired, Jesus changes Simons name to Rock [Peter, Petros - and this renaming has to be significant here just as it is anytime God changes a name], then he states that His [Jesus’] Church will be founded upon this Rock and gives [hands over] to the Rock the Keys of Heaven and the Power to Open/Shut the Gates …

So who did Jesus hand the Keys to? …

Himself? No, you do not hand to oneself what you already possess.

A profession of faith? How can you hand keys to words that are spoken? … No.

Th Truth that Jesus was the Messsiah? … Again you cannot hand keys to a Truth that hangs in air …

The keys are given to Peter … the Rock, the Rock upon whiich Jesus founded His Church … not Peter’s Church but the Church of Christ …

Yees, I know that Jesus holds the Keys in Revelation … but the owner always keeps the Keys and the authority that arises from being the Owner - King of Kings, Lord of Lords … but they can and do delegte authority to others and provide Keys … some are Master keys … some onlu open certain doors but not others …
read Isaiah … the Prime Minister of the Davidic Kingdom … he is called Abba [Father, Papa, Daddy or Pope] by the People … he opens the doors of the kingdom that none [but the King] can open and shuts the doors that none [but the King] can shut … he derives his authority from the King but the King is always and everywhere the King and ultimate authority …

So Peter is the Rock upon which the Church is built. Jesus left a leadership and organization - structure - a visible and human entity - the Church, a people of God

Belief in Jesus as the Messiah is the Rock of faith for every Christian … for Peter and the disciples, for paul and for every CHRISTIAN

And not one bit of the above denies the reality that:

Jesus is the Rock of Salvation and the Foundation of the Church. Jesus is also the Master builder.*
 
Just because I like to simplify my own arguments I am going to follow YADA on this…

Jesus is preparing to return home but has established a second residence on Earth. among all of his friends and followers he knows (of course) to ask Simon to answer the riddle of who He, Jesus, is (this is the alarm code to the House). Of course no one of Earthly lineage knows the answer (except Jesus) but somehow Simon comes back with the right answer (through the Grace of the Father). This is confirmation and Jesus looks at Simon and says, “Because you were open enough to receive this truth I am going to give you 2 rewards…first a new name, Peter AKA the Rock. Second, I am going to give you the keys to my House.”

Peter is like…“Huh???” And Jesus says, “And I am going to give you “Power of Attorney” to rub my Estate here until I get back.” Jesus has already given Peter instructions on how to run the Estate so it is all clear. Jesus’ other comments about praying for Peter (Simon, Simon…) to have strength in his faith now becoming clear.

But later Jesus tells Peter, “You are going to deny me when the cops come.” Peter is all confused but by his Master’s actions he knows he is still the chosen person to run the Estate.

Many years later people start asking, “Why did He give you the keys since you denied Him?” Peter does not respond, instead some Catholic Apologetic does (can’t remember the name) and says, “You chain is only as strong as your weakest link. And if Peter was the weakest link imagine how strong the Estate is…” (There was a fair amount of paraphrasing there…)

Going on…Since Peter is human he dies. But before he does so another Executor of the Estate is found and the keys are passed on with the instruction manual and so on and so on…

The previous narrative may make no sense to anyone but me but I needed to get it out on “paper” before I forgot because it has always seemed so obvious to me that Christ would leave His Estate, the Church, in the hands of an Executor to manage His affairs as directed until his return…🤷

Peace be with all you of and forgive me for taking up space with this bit of musing…
 
Which is the Rock: Peter, or the truth of Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God?
Both. Okay, I’ll explain. 🙂 Catholics do not interpret the Bible to prove things. We see it as a whole–and that whole as part of a larger picture called Sacred Tradition. This Tradition is not the traditions of men Jesus railed against, but rather the oral and written teachings of the Apostles to whom Jesus gave the authority to preach and teach in his name.

Others have gone into Peter’s primacy very well, so I won’t cover that ground again. What you need to understand is that Jesus didn’t leave us to fend for ourselves. The NT very clearly shows the formation of the Church, that it was one in teaching, and that it had a hierarchy–just as it still has today.

So, Jesus affirmed his own word by passing it on to the Apostles and gave successors to the Apostles a sure foothold on the truth by setting up the papacy and the Magisterium (that’s all the bishops in union with the pope). Jesus set up his kingdom in his Church, reigning through it until he comes again. And that is the simple biblical truth of the matter. 🙂
 
Both, as Della said. Why does it have to be one or the other? :confused:
 
I’ve heard the Catholic arugument for Peter being the Rock,but here (the link below) is a non-Catholic or Protstant rebuttal. What are your comments/thoughts?
christiancourier.com/articles/552-was-peter-the-rock
The article does nothing to reconcile the meaning of Matthew 16:19 (which is very important to the point in Matthew 16:18) in the context of Isaiah 22:

Matthew 16:19 - And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Isaiah 22:22 - And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Notice that Shebna is being stripped of his power and authority, but the office he held is not being eliminated - Eliachim is going to fill that office with the same power and authority that Shebna once had. The transfer of the key non-verbally says all this. The key is very powerful, more powerful than the word games that the article is playing with the ancient languages. And as YADA said, you can’t give a key to a teaching or idea - the key and authority that comes with it must fall on a tangible entity, or else the bestowing of such authority would be pointless. If you do not consider the Old Testament context that frames Jesus’ statement in Matthew 18:16, you will not get the correct meaning.

By the way, here are some word games in favor of the Catholic position. See especially the part in both posts about the demonstrative pronoun ‘kai’, which I don’t recall being discussed in the OP’s link:

geocities.com/okc_catholic/articles/cephas.html
 
Thank you for your comments. I wanted to explain though, to you that said the keys can’t be given to a belief/truth, etc.

I think the Protestant belief in this would be that the keys are given to anyone who believes this truth. So all believers have the authority or keys to the kingdom. Why do Catholics not believe that?
 
Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! … 16:18 And I tell you, you are Rock, …
Seems very clear to me that the “rock” is a “you” – that is, a person.
 
It is both of course. In fact, we as Catholics all must agree with the profession of faith of Peter and his successors, because it is not flesh and blood that reveals it to him, but God (this is the foundation of the Catholic dogma of papal infallibility). In Luke, Christ prays for Peter’s faith that it not fail so that he can strengthen the brethren. It is Peter and his faith that are the unshakeable foundation upon which Christ builds and its Christ who makes it unshakeable.
 
Thank you for your comments. I wanted to explain though, to you that said the keys can’t be given to a belief/truth, etc.

I think the Protestant belief in this would be that the keys are given to anyone who believes this truth. So all believers have the authority or keys to the kingdom. Why do Catholics not believe that?
Well, suppose we all possesed the keys to the kingdom and whatever I bound on earth was bound in heaven. Sounds like a pretty good deal until you – who ALSO possess the keys to the kingdom and whatever YOU bound on earth was bound in heaven – beg to differ on some important article of faith or morals (baptism, salvation, the nature of God, remarriage, you name it)? So who’s right? We can’t both be right (let alone the billions of other Christians who who ALSO possess the keys to the kingdom and whatever THEY bound on earth was bound in heaven).

Do you see what follows? It makes it manifestly obvious --along with the fact that Jesus pointedly used the word YOU in addressing Peter — that Jesus was talking to an individual – that individual being Peter.

So far so good. But does that mean Jesus’ words apply ONLY to Peter? Imagine this:

Jesus: “Peter, I’ve got some good news and some bad news. First, I say to you that YOU possess the keys to the kingdom and whatever YOU bound on earth was bound in heaven. The bad news is that power and authority is going to die with you. So we made this long trip up to Caesarea Phillipi to stand in front of this big rock as a backdrop just so I can predict something that’s going to last maybe 40 years or so.”:rolleyes:

No, it is obvious again that this was something that was going to be passed on from Peter to those who succeeded him, personally in his office, in some manner. Those successors are the Popes.
 
Thank you for your comments. I wanted to explain though, to you that said the keys can’t be given to a belief/truth, etc.

I think the Protestant belief in this would be that the keys are given to anyone who believes this truth. So all believers have the authority or keys to the kingdom. Why do Catholics not believe that?
Yes, many protestants do believe this, which is why we now have over 30,000 different denominations of protestants, all claiming to have the truth as guided by the Holy Spirit. That is the problem - everyone ones to be their own “pope”. It is the papacy (the successor to Peter, who is the rock on which the Church was built) that reprents the glue that holds consistency of doctrine together.

That is why the Catholic Deposit of Faith has remained consistent over the last 2,000 plus years, but when people stray from these teachings (as warned by Peter they would (2 pet 1:20-21; 2 pet 3:15-16), you end up with disunity in the body of Christ and strange teachings which bear no resemblance to the beliefs of the early Apostles.

I don’t say this lightly as I’m a Protestant - but as evidenced by this post, in the midst of swiming the Tiber. As the late Cardinal Newman (Anglican convert to Catholicism) said, “. . . to be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant” - this is because history shows the continous links between the Catholic bishops of today going all the way back to the time of the apostles with core doctrines remaining consistent. This can’t be said of other denominations - and it all started with Peter and the “keys to the kingdom”.

Blessings,

Brian
 
I read the article. They are all points that I have read previously. My honest opinion is that these scholars here are doing what Catholics always get accused of, twisting the living daylights out of the plain context of the passage.

Peter was the rock, for my Bible tells me so.

God bless
 
Well, suppose we all possesed the keys to the kingdom and whatever I bound on earth was bound in heaven. Sounds like a pretty good deal until you – who ALSO possess the keys to the kingdom and whatever YOU bound on earth was bound in heaven – beg to differ on some important article of faith or morals (baptism, salvation, the nature of God, remarriage, you name it)? So who’s right? We can’t both be right (let alone the billions of other Christians who who ALSO possess the keys to the kingdom and whatever THEY bound on earth was bound in heaven).

Do you see what follows? It makes it manifestly obvious --along with the fact that Jesus pointedly used the word YOU in addressing Peter — that Jesus was talking to an individual – that individual being Peter.

So far so good. But does that mean Jesus’ words apply ONLY to Peter? Imagine this:

Jesus: “Peter, I’ve got some good news and some bad news. First, I say to you that YOU possess the keys to the kingdom and whatever YOU bound on earth was bound in heaven. The bad news is that power and authority is going to die with you. So we made this long trip up to Caesarea Phillipi to stand in front of this big rock as a backdrop just so I can predict something that’s going to last maybe 40 years or so.”:rolleyes:

No, it is obvious again that this was something that was going to be passed on from Peter to those who succeeded him, personally in his office, in some manner. Those successors are the Popes.
Good points!👍
 
I don’t say this lightly as I’m a Protestant - but as evidenced by this post, in the midst of swiming the Tiber. Blessings,

Brian
👍 Yey! I’m not alone! How long have you been on the journey? It’s really hard for me. I was SO convinced it was God’s will, and now am not sure, am confused, am still trying to make sure the Catholic Church isn’t some anti-christ plan. I figure it’s either right, or it’s of the Devil, no middle ground because of the kind of claims they make. That’s what’s holding me back. The gospel is so different than the gospel I was raised with. One of us (religions) is wrong…or we both are, but we can’t both be right. I kinda feel like if Catholicism is wrong, than I can’t really trust Christianity/the BIble in general. Ahh! This is getting so frustrating!

By the way, what’s all this “Tiber swim team” stuff? I’m starting to think it’s not really about swimming the Tiber?!😛 I thought it was kinda odd that there were so many of you out there!
 
👍 Yey! I’m not alone! How long have you been on the journey? It’s really hard for me. I was SO convinced it was God’s will, and now am not sure, am confused, am still trying to make sure the Catholic Church isn’t some anti-christ plan. I figure it’s either right, or it’s of the Devil, no middle ground because of the kind of claims they make. That’s what’s holding me back. The gospel is so different than the gospel I was raised with. One of us (religions) is wrong…or we both are, but we can’t both be right. I kinda feel like if Catholicism is wrong, than I can’t really trust Christianity/the BIble in general. Ahh! This is getting so frustrating!

By the way, what’s all this “Tiber swim team” stuff? I’m starting to think it’s not really about swimming the Tiber?!😛 I thought it was kinda odd that there were so many of you out there!
For me, it started about 1 year ago with a craving for the sacraments (strong desire to partake of the Eucharist and to go to confession). The urge was (and remains) deep. That started an intellectual journey - digging deeper into early Church history which - surprisingly to me - seemed to support the Catholic Church claim of consistency of doctrine and the concept of Apostolic succesion. I then read the Catholic Catechism and was surprised to learn what Catholic doctrine was, and what it was not (i.e., I had many misconceptions). From there, I started re-reading the scriptures from a Catholic perspective and became convinced. I started attending Catholic Church masses, praying the rosary and now I’m in RCIA. I do believe the Catholic Church is indeed the Church initially established by Jesus, built upon the Rock (Peter) to whom he gave the keys to the kingdom.

While I have no convinced my wife - she supports my search for the truth and joining the Church and hopefully some day she will join me.

I’ll pray for you in your personal journey.

Blessings,

Brian
 
👍 Yey! I’m not alone! How long have you been on the journey? It’s really hard for me. I was SO convinced it was God’s will, and now am not sure, am confused, am still trying to make sure the Catholic Church isn’t some anti-christ plan. I figure it’s either right, or it’s of the Devil, no middle ground because of the kind of claims they make. That’s what’s holding me back. The gospel is so different than the gospel I was raised with. One of us (religions) is wrong…or we both are, but we can’t both be right. I kinda feel like if Catholicism is wrong, than I can’t really trust Christianity/the BIble in general. Ahh! This is getting so frustrating!

By the way, what’s all this “Tiber swim team” stuff? I’m starting to think it’s not really about swimming the Tiber?!😛 I thought it was kinda odd that there were so many of you out there!
A lot of us went through the same process you are going through now, me included. I too had such fears because I had been taught a lot of wrong things about Catholicism, mostly from people who were only repeating the same misinformation they had been given.

Also, the Catholic Church does not teach that there is no truth in other Christian bodies of believers. Most retain a good deal of their Catholic roots although they don’t all realize it. They believe in the Trinity, for instance, even though the Church was challenged on this teaching and so had to work it out and decide what was correct in one of its councils. Most Protestants believe in the Virgin Birth of Christ, the two natures of Christ (fully God and fully human), and many other such teachings all hammered out by the Catholic Church.

After the Reformation, when the idea that every man could interpret Scripture for himself, is when people began going farther and farther away from the teachings of the ancient Church. The books of the Bible weren’t even settled upon until the 4th century, so what did people rely upon for the truth? The oral teachings of the Apostles handed down to the bishops (including the pope).

A great little book whose text is online is: Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church. It’s easy to read and yet gives enough history to help anyone who truly wishes to know what the Bible is, where it came from, and how we happen to have it today. I think you’d find it a great help.

The Tiber Swim Team is an inside thing among us converts. It refers to crossing the Tiber River to enter Rome–meaning converting to the Catholic Church. As you can see by my signature, I came into the Church just over 20 years ago and I have never regretted it for a single instant.

I too will keep you in my prayers. 🙂
 
Mesl4, you are certainly not alone. Although I was born and raised Catholic, my faith was challenged by friends and acquaintances from 2 sides - Protestant and Orthodox. And the only honest answer I could give, was to either be intellectually convinced of the truth of Catholic teachings, or to abandon the Catholic church and possibly join some of these other churches.

But let’s consider the theory that anyone who confesses Christ, not just Simon the Son of Jonah, automatically becomes “The Rock”, possesses the Keys to Heaven, and has the authority to bind and loosen. Now go to John 1, 35-51, where the apostle describes the story how Jesus initially met and invited the apostles John, Andrew, Peter, Philip, and Nathanael. When Jesus first meets Simon (Peter), he tells him: “You are Simon, the son of Jonah. Your name will be Rock (Kephas in Aramaic, Peter in Latin language)” (John 1, 42). On their very first encounter, Jesus greets Peter with this prophecy, he gives this prophecy to one individual person called Simon the Son of Jonah, and he doesn’t tell to all the disciples, that “all of you guys who confess me, will be called Rock”. This in spite the fact that in the same passage (John 1, 35-51), several apostles other than Peter as well as John the Baptist already confess him as being the Messiah: “He is the Son of God” and “Behold the Lamb of God” - St John the Baptist verses 34, 37; “We found the Messiah” - Andrew, verse 41; “We found the one foretold by Moses and the prophets” - Philip, verse 45; “Rabbi, you are the Son of God!” - Natanael, verse 49. In summary, in this passage Jesus is confessed by St John the Baptist, as well as apostles Andrew, Philip, and Natanael; he is not confessed vocally here by John and Simon (Peter) (although their actions are certainly consistent with believing that Jesus is the Messiah). Yet, nobody except for Simon is being told that he will be called Rock.

This is a strong argument against the Protestant interpretation that The Rock means anybody who confesses Jesus, and they failed to deal with it.

Interestingly, a little after the famous Matthew 16, 15-18, where Simon is being called Rock, made the foundation of the Church, given the Keys, and the authority to bind and loosen, PART OF these authorities are extended to the “Church” and to the “Community” as well. Namely in Matthew 18, 16-18, Jesus gives the authority to bind and loosen to the community of the Church. However the rest of the Church is not being called Rock, not being made foundation, and not given the Keys.

This is what the Orthodox Churches fail to accept - that Peter and the Popes have a special authority which was not given to other Apostles and Bishops. As Vatican I expressed it, the Pope (Peter’s successor) can teach ALONE ex cathedra, no “approval” or “ratification” from the rest of the Bishops required. The Orthodox are simply trying to strip the Popes (Peter) of their authority, insisting that the Pope’s (Peter’s) teaching must be ratified by the “Ecumenical Council” (representing all Bishops, successors of the apostles). In truth it’s the other way around, because whenever a division arises among the Apostles/Bishops, half of them trying to bind, the other half trying to loose the same issue, there is an impasse and only Peter/the Pope can solve it, since he has an INDIVIDUAL authority independently from the COLLECTIVE authority of the rest of Apostles/Bishops. Thus, any Council’s teaching must be approved/ratified by the Pope, otherwise it’s not valid.
 
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