Which of Luthers 95 theses

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Dear ChurchMilitant,

quote: ChurchMilitant
I (frankly) could give a rip about Luther, since (IMO) he was a neurotic whackjob that led millions of Christians into errors like sola scriptura and sola fide and has irreparably harmed Christ’s church with resulting divisions & rebellion.
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Uh, “a neurotic whackjob” ?? 😃

Now, I’ve referred to myself as a “looney”
and truly I am , but never have I heard
the phrase: “a neurotic whackjob” used
to describe those of us who are…uh…
“emotionally challenged.” [PC term??]:cool:

I dunno, ChurchMilitant, it has a certain ring
to it. A kind of poetry.
Is it all right with you if I borrow the term? 😃

The one I most prefer is to use: “Yeah, and
I’m not wrapped too tight to *begin *with!”

I supply you with this phrase, in case you
cannot again reach the poetic heights
involved in: “a neurotic whackjob.”

Truly, it was worth checking the forums
again, today, not to have missed such
decorative description.

Be well,

Best,
Maureen
 
tkdnick said:
26.* The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory]
, not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.*

If the Pope does not hold the keys, then who does?

86. Again: – “Why does not the pope, whose wealth is to-day greater than the riches of the richest, build just this one church of St. Peter with his own money, rather than with the money of poor believers?”

Can you prove that the Pope has “greater riches than the riches of the richest”?
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Ok, to put us back on your topic. I have issues with both of these.
 
Church Militant gave a few disagreements and agreements.

I would be interested in knowing if the n-C disagree with Luther’s ones on purgatory, (the ones CM agreed with:D )?

I certainly am looking at them myself for my own agreement or disagreement, but these have yet to be commented on.

God Bless,
Maria
 
Church Militant:
…my statements concerning Luther are historically accurate and demonstrate the mind of the man behind these errors.
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On the occasion of Martin Luther’s 500th anniversary Pope John Paul II was quoted as having written: 'In fact, the scientific researches of Evangelical and Catholic scholars, researches whose results have already reached notable points of convergence, have led to the delineation of a more complete and more differentiated picture of Luther’s personality and of the complex texture of the social, political and ecclesial historical realities of the first half of the sixteenth century. Consequently there is clearly outlined the deep religious feeling of Luther who was driven with burning passion by the question of eternal salvation".
 
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stanley123:
On the occasion of Martin Luther’s 500th anniversary Pope John Paul II was quoted as having written: 'In fact, the scientific researches of Evangelical and Catholic scholars, researches whose results have already reached notable points of convergence, have led to the delineation of a more complete and more differentiated picture of Luther’s personality and of the complex texture of the social, political and ecclesial historical realities of the first half of the sixteenth century. Consequently there is clearly outlined the deep religious feeling of Luther who was driven with burning passion by the question of eternal salvation".
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I bow to His Holiness’ wisdom and understanding for this neurotic whackjob, but that does nothing to mitigate the errors that he unleashed and the harm that he caused and that his followers continue to cause. Now we see why they callled him John Paul The Great, his charity and understanding I will never be able to attain.

IMO Luther remains a theological pain in the neck.

Personal to Reen12:
I nearly fell off the chair laughing, and of course you may fling that around at your discretion. I work hard to avoid falling into that category myself, though I too am not all that tightly wrapped.
Pax vobiscum,
 
Dear C.M.

The more I think of neurotic whackjob, the harder
I laugh! 😃
Be well, my friend,
Maureen
 
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stanley123:
On the occasion of Martin Luther’s 500th anniversary Pope John Paul II was quoted as having written: 'In fact, the scientific researches of Evangelical and Catholic scholars, researches whose results have already reached notable points of convergence, have led to the delineation of a more complete and more differentiated picture of Luther’s personality and of the complex texture of the social, political and ecclesial historical realities of the first half of the sixteenth century. Consequently there is clearly outlined the deep religious feeling of Luther who was driven with burning passion by the question of eternal salvation".
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Wow. This has more to say about Pope John Paul II than it does about Luther. PJP II was truly Great. Only a man full of Christ’s love could be so generous to a man who referred to a prior pope as the “antichrist”.
 
Xavier and EA_Man -

I can’t speak for the other posters on here, but my opinion of Luther is based off of his own writings. I have read his 95 theses (read it well before you posted it on here), his letter on why he added the sola, and another thing he wrote entitled On the Jews and their lies. Other than that, I have read my fair share of history on him (considering I am a history major) and listened to my fair share of lectures on him. I don’t see how my opinion can possibly come from anti-Luther sources, considering the man’s own writings are my main basis for my opinion of him. No double standard here.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Xavier and EA_Man -

I can’t speak for the other posters on here, but my opinion of Luther is based off of his own writings. I have read his 95 theses (read it well before you posted it on here), his letter on why he added the sola, and another thing he wrote entitled On the Jews and their lies. Other than that, I have read my fair share of history on him (considering I am a history major) and listened to my fair share of lectures on him. I don’t see how my opinion can possibly come from anti-Luther sources, considering the man’s own writings are my main basis for my opinion of him. No double standard here.
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I did not say that had or were using a double-standard.

I was saying that Church_Militant was using a double standard on that particular post.

I don’t regard any or every person who takes a dim view of Luther to have a double standard. Just as I don’t have double standard when taking a dim view of several popes.

There are good and bad in all denominations.

Peace
 
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Xavier:
…I have however read them. Have you?
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Typical of so many posters, acccusing others of ignorance when they have nothing else to say.

Yes I have read them as a matter of fact. I was attending a Baptist church at the time. I was looking for the truth in theology and I knew it was not in the Baptist sects due to their theology of every whim and fancy. I was looking at going back to the Lutheran church which I had attended before going to the Baptist ones. I was studying Luther and read his 95 Thesis among other of his writtings. How sad a so called doctor of theology could write such drible. When I studied it I slowly, I learned how illogical Luther and his theology are. Even Lutherans today don’t follow Luthers example and theology truth and errors, but then isn’t mixing lies with the truth the way in which Satan breaks up Christs Catholic Church with false prophets like Luther?

When I attended the Lutheran church they naturally NEVER mentioned Luther in the studies I attended. Now I know why! Now that I am Catholic I know that Catholics talk often of Luther since Catholics have Tradition and often look at the past and its history. Most Protestants never seem to look back at anything other then a Protestant abridged and edited version of Scripture. How many Lutheran branches are there now and who and when were they founded?

The 95 Thesis helped in my coming home to Christs body, His Catholic Church. By studying it and learning the truth I found the Tuth in the Dogma, Faith and Morals of the Catholic Church. The last place I looked and the last place I expected to find it as a Protestant drifting in the winds of easy feel good now theology. But, if you follow the truth, all truth points to Rome.

Oh, did I drift…?😉
 
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Xavier:
do you disagree with?
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  1. This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair. 16. Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation.
  2. It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily decrease and love increase.
  3. Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love.
  4. Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.
I disagree with Marty’s understanding of Purgatory. But I am relieved that the founder of the Protestant Deformation recognized the existance of it along with, apparently, the Scriptural proof thereof.

Peace in Christ,

Dustinsdad
 
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Xavier:
What Jesus founded did not resemble anything that looked like the RCC of the 16th century.
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Sure it does. Council in Acts 15 a prime example.


  1. *]Heresy pops up in parts of the church.
    *]Heresy becomes widespread.
    *]Heresy gets taken up the ladder of authority and finally to those in the highest authority - the pope and bishops in union with him.
    *]Case is discussed, debated, and finally settled by the pope and the bishops in union with him…settled that is for the entire universal church - with the protection, approval, and blessing of the Holy Spirit.
    *]Decisions regarding faith and morals stand forever. Decisions regarding practices or disciplines can change over time. Sounds very Catholic indeed.

    Let’s see…was that in Acts 15 or the Council of Trent? Oh yeah - BOTH!!!

    Peace,

    DustinsDad
 
“30.* No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission*.”

1st point:

So, NO ONE can know if he is sincre? How pompous of someone to claim that. How can Luther tell if someone is not? Can Jesus ‘see’ into our heart?

2nd point:

St. Mt 6:12 “12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;”

St. Mt. 9:6-8 “6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” …the crowds…glorified God who had given such authority to human beings."

St. Mt 16:18-19 “18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
St. Mt 6:12 “12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;”

Jesus gave the Church the ‘Keys’ to His kingdom and thus gave it His authority on earth to bind in heaven or to loose on earth. The Sacrament of Reconciliation was a gift from God to His body, His Catholic Church. Apostolic succession good - schismatics bad. Valid and licit Catholic Clergy HAVE the gift from God to allow God to work through them with His power to forgive our sins.

See also: Neh 9:1-4, 10:34, Mt 11:19-23, 18:18-21, Lk 1:76-79, 24:46-47, Heb 12, Jas 5:13-16, 2 Pe 1:5-11, 1 Jn 5:16-17.

Point 30 proved false.:clapping: Now that was easy!

Darnit, I don’t think I drifted this time? Maybe next time?😉
 
Malachi4U said:
“30.* No one is sure that his own contrition is sincere; much less that he has attained full remission*.”

…Point 30 proved false.:clapping: Now that was easy!
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Good job, but you missed the biggest one…
(John 20:21-23) Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.** If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained**.”

Marty’s thesis would make Our Lord Jesus Christ into a liar. Absolutely impossible.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
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Eden:
I don’t have a problem with the fact that Luther posted 95 theses. I have a problem with the fact that he created an entirely new religion. There is only one Church of Christ and that is the Catholic Church. Lutheranism is markedly different from what Protestants euphemistically call the “early Church” i.e. the Catholic Church in the first 3 or 4 centuries.
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I had a politaical discussion with my brother some time ago. He said he has shifted in his thinking in that he now considers himself a Catholic first and American second, it had not always been that way.
I consider myself Christian first.
Many, many, many catholics consider themsleves Catholic nad not Christian. Christ established the Christian Church. Luther did not establish another religion he broke away from the practices and beliefs of the existing religion.
 
Here is a concise Q & A on your concern about Catholics referring to themselves as “Catholic” vs. “Christian”. In the earliest days of the Catholic Church (what Protestants call the “early Church”) all Christians were Catholics.

**catholic /christian **
Question from mandy on 3/17/2005: ewtn.com/images/printer.gif
I was wondering why when speaking with catholics that they do not refer to themselves as christians but call them selves catholics instead, aren’t both one in the same?

Answer by Catholic Answers on 3/26/2005:

Dear Mandy, Catholics were the first Christians. For Catholics “Christian” has come to include all those who have been baptized, including many who do not accept all of the deposit of the faith. For us, to be a Catholic is to accept all of the teachings of the early Church. Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

If you do not believe that Luther created a new religion, the Ignatian letters are wonderful proof that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ:

(from New Advent)

Contents of the letters It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of the testimony which the Ignatian letters offer to the dogmatic character of Apostolic Christianity. The martyred Bishop of Antioch constitutes a most important link between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. **Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth, his testimony must necessarily carry with it the greatest weight and demand the most serious consideration. **Cardinal Newman did not exaggerate the matter when he said (“The Theology of the Seven Epistles of St. Ignatius”, in “Historical Sketches”, I, London, 1890) that “the whole system of Catholic doctrine may be discovered, at least in outline, not to say in parts filled up, in the course of his seven epistles”.

Which of the following elements of the early Church that were documented by St. Ignatius of Antioch that are still found in the Catholic Church are part of the faith system of different Protestant interpretations of Christianity?

Among the many Catholic doctrines to be found in the letters are the following: the Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut themselves off from God(Philad., c. iii); the hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (lntrod. to Philad.; Ephes., c. vi); the threefold character of the hierarchy (Magn., c. vi); the order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the priesthood (Magn., c. vi, c. xiii; Smyrn., c. viii;. Trall., .c. iii);the unity of the Church (Trall., c. vi;Philad., c. iii; Magn., c. xiii);the holiness of the Church (Smyrn., Ephes., Magn., Trall., and Rom.); the catholicity of the Church (Smyrn., c. viii); the infallibility of the Church(Philad., c. iii; Ephes., cc. xvi, xvii); the doctrine of the Eucharist (Smyrn., c. viii), which word we find for the first time applied to the Blessed Sacrament, just as in Smyrn., viii, we meet for the first time the phrase “Catholic Church”, used to designate all Christians**; the Incarnation** (Ephes., c. xviii); the supernatural virtue of virginity, already much esteemed and made the subject of a vow (Polyc., c. v); the religious character of matrimony (Polyc., c. v); the value of united prayer (Ephes., c. xiii); **the primacy of the See of Rome **(Rom., introd.). He, moreover, denounces in principle the Protestant doctrine of private judgment in matters’ of religion (Philad. c. iii), The heresy against which he chiefly inveighs is Docetism. Neither do the Judaizing heresies escape his vigorous condemnation.
 
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